Worried (Unnecessarily?)

[T1ME1]

Hello. I have a few concerns about my new 8 month old Greek, which I was hoping people might be able to help me with please.

When I picked my tort out at the store, he was lively and bold, walked up my arm when I picked him up etc. Now he eats and basks etc but when he realises I am in the room he just freezes and will not do anything. Sometimes he moves his front legs backwards and forwards but that is it. I wondered whether the absence of the hustle and bustle of the store had made him more sensitive to goings on outside his tort table. Therefore I have decided to put the radio on between 9 and 5 each day, in the hope it may help. I want to develop a good relationship with my Tort and I do not know whether to try and step up the level of contact in the hope that he will learn and accept it or whether to try and limit it to stop stressing him out. I would understand if it was in his nature, but clearly he was a very bold and happy little tort in the store.

Secondly, I get up for work at 6:30am and bathe and feed him at 7am. His lights are set to come on at 6am until 9pm at night. However, I always have to wake him up rather than him getting up naturally, and he sleeps ALOT. He has his soak, eats, basks for an hour and then goes back to bed it seems. Obviously I am not there all the time but he is hunkered down for the night by 4pm. I don't know whether to leave him to wake himself up or not. I am concerned that if I do he will get out of sync by getting up so late. His temps are 30-32oC basking and 20-22oC at night.

Lastly, after looking at advice on this forum I have put coconut coir in as his substrate. At the store he had a mediterranean tort soil/play sand mix that comes ready mixed and is apparently designed for Greeks. Do you think I should go back to this to make him more comfortable (it is just that I had read any type of sand was not great).

He does seem to eat OK but doesn't go near his water bowl - I assume he just drinks during his daily soaks.

Any help/advice gratefully received.

 

[JoesMum]

Hello. I have a few concerns about my new 8 month old Greek, which I was hoping people might be able to help me with please.

When I picked my tort out at the store, he was lively and bold, walked up my arm when I picked him up etc. Now he eats and basks etc but when he realises I am in the room he just freezes and will not do anything.

You do not say how long you have had him, but torts are notoriously slow at adaoting to change. Some can take months to used to new owners and new surroundings. More on that shortly.

Sometimes he moves his front legs backwards and forwards but that is it.

This is entirely normal. Your tortoise is breathing; it is a good sign

I wondered whether the absence of the hustle and bustle of the store had made him more sensitive to goings on outside his tort table. Therefore I have decided to put the radio on between 9 and 5 each day, in the hope it may help. I want to develop a good relationship with my Tort and I do not know whether to try and step up the level of contact in the hope that he will learn and accept it or whether to try and limit it to stop stressing him out. I would understand if it was in his nature, but clearly he was a very bold and happy little tort in the store.

Secondly, I get up for work at 6:30am and bathe and feed him at 7am. His lights are set to come on at 6am until 9pm at night. However, I always have to wake him up rather than him getting up naturally, and he sleeps ALOT. He has his soak, eats, basks for an hour and then goes back to bed it seems. Obviously I am not there all the time but he is hunkered down for the night by 4pm. I don't know whether to leave him to wake himself up or not.

The change of routine generally will have upset him. The thing to do is to establish a new one and stick to it rigidly. He will operate the day time that you give him. So if you get up at 6.30am, make his day start at 6.30am.

Start the day in the same way every day. Use a timer for the lights and have them come on just befire you get up.
Soak him and then pop him under his basking lamp with fresh food. Then walk away and leave him. Standing and watching is intimidating.
Typically, Joe will be bedded down by 4pm so don't be surprised if you don't see much activity at the other end of the day.

Young animals sleep a lot and torts are no exception. Scared ones will hide away. Gradually your tort will get used to what is normal for his new home and become more confident, particularly when the penny drops that you mean nice food. Don't be in a hurry; like I said we could be talking months! And leave the radio off, he doesn't need it

I am concerned that if I do he will get out of sync by getting up so late. His temps are 30-32oC basking and 20-22oC at night.

Do you have an accurate thermometer to check this. A temperature gun is best. You might want to lower the lamp slightly to get closer to 35C directly under it.

Lastly, after looking at advice on this forum I have put coconut coir in as his substrate. At the store he had a mediterranean tort soil/play sand mix that comes ready mixed and is apparently designed for Greeks. Do you think I should go back to this to make him more comfortable (it is just that I had read any type of sand was not great).

Stick with the coir. Sand causes impaction in the gut. Pet stores are notorious for getting this sort of thing wrong.

He does seem to eat OK but doesn't go near his water bowl - I assume he just drinks during his daily soaks.

Any help/advice gratefully received.

Quite likely he is taking on what he needs in the soaks, but can he actually drink from the bowl you have provided? It needs to be sunk into the substrate otherwise he won't be abke to reach. You can always post a photo of the enclosure so that we can see if there are any changes that we recommend.

 

[T1ME1]

@JoesMum thank you so much for your response to my post - it has reassured me no end.

You do not say how long you have had him, but torts are notoriously slow at adaoting to change. Some can take months to used to new owners and new surroundings. More on that shortly.

I picked him up on Friday (23/05/2014) - so not very long ago!

This is entirely normal. Your tortoise is breathing; it is a good sign

Great thanks, I was worried it was a display of stress!

The change of routine generally will have upset him. The thing to do is to establish a new one and stick to it rigidly. He will operate the day time that you give him. So if you get up at 6.30am, make his day start at 6.30am.

That is what I intend to do - although at the weekends it will be slightly different. Hoping my routine will be:
06:00 - Lights on
07:00 - 15mins soak whilst I change water, spot check substrate, provide food. Then place in front of fresh food.
18:00 - Possibly provide more food if necessary
21:00 - Lights off

Start the day in the same way every day. Use a timer for the lights and have them come on just befire you get up.
Soak him and then pop him under his basking lamp with fresh food. Then walk away and leave him. Standing and watching is intimidating.
Typically, Joe will be bedded down by 4pm so don't be surprised if you don't see much activity at the other end of the day.

I have got a timer sorted for the lights. I have been standing/sitting and watching as I wanted to make sure he was OK whilst soaking and then was eating properly. I will make sure not to do that in future.

Young animals sleep a lot and torts are no exception. Scared ones will hide away. Gradually your tort will get used to what is normal for his new home and become more confident, particularly when the penny drops that you mean nice food. Don't be in a hurry; like I said we could be talking months! And leave the radio off, he doesn't need it

I will make sure the radio is off from now on. I also would like to get him out and handle him more often so that he becomes used to it. He didn't seem to mind it at the store and I would like that kind of relationship. However, I am not sure whether that would just stress him further at the moment.

Do you have an accurate thermometer to check this. A temperature gun is best. You might want to lower the lamp slightly to get closer to 35C directly under it.

I purchased an electronic thermometer from the Reptile store. It has two measuring probes. One I have placed on the wall next to the lamp, and the other in the sleeping area. I will look at getting a temperature gun.

Stick with the coir. Sand causes impaction in the gut. Pet stores are notorious for getting this sort of thing wrong.

Quite likely he is taking on what he needs in the soaks, but can he actually drink from the bowl you have provided? It needs to be sunk into the substrate otherwise he won't be abke to reach. You can always post a photo of the enclosure so that we can see if there are any changes that we recommend.

Great, thanks. The only reason I asked about the substrate is because he is obviously not used to it, and when he has been digging the stuff gets everywhere (in his eyes even).

The food and water bowls are the exact same design as those used in the tortoise table at the store, so I would imagine he would be able to. I will look at getting a teracotta saucer or something though, just to be sure.

I have posted some pictures of him and his enclosure elsewhere on the forum:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/lenny-has-landed.93098/

Sorry I cannot upload them again here from my work computer.

Thank you once again for all of your help. Any comments on my setup would be most welcome.

 

[SunnySideUp]

The behavior you're experiencing is almost identical to my juvenile tortoise's behavior. I have only had my Hermann's tortoise Pumpkin for about two weeks and he still seems very tentative around me and perhaps a little threatened. If I hover too much around him he also pauses and breathes in a slightly accentuated manner (though it is perfectly normal for a tortoise to shrug their forearms slightly when breathing). Also, if I turn on my lights around 6 as you do Pumpkin will also bed down for the night around 4-5pm. Since Pumpkin pipped on September 8th of last year he is about the same age as your tortoise so it makes sense that their behavior would be so similar, especially since they are new in our homes.

Everything your tortoise is doing seems to be normal, especially since it is mirrored so closely in my and other youngsters' behaviors. I would just give him time to acclimate, as I am trying to do with my little guy. Just stay away from sand, that's typically a no-no.

 

[SunnySideUp]

Also, if you find that the coir is getting everywhere, you can mix it with some all natural, fertilizer and chemical free soil to add a bit more weight to it. Or you can pack it down with your hands so its less loose. Spraying the substrate down may also help, since dusty coir is very loose.

 

[JoesMum]

I have got a timer sorted for the lights. I have been standing/sitting and watching as I wanted to make sure he was OK whilst soaking and then was eating properly. I will make sure not to do that in future.

once your tort learns to relax, it won't be bothered by you watching. In fact it will probably scounging food from you!

I also would like to get him out and handle him more often so that he becomes used to it. He didn't seem to mind it at the store and I would like that kind of relationship. However, I am not sure whether that would just stress him further at the moment.

Do handle your tort. It helps it to get used to bejng moved around. Until he relaxes a little, do it in conjunction with feeding and soaking... things he likes. That way it will always be associated with positive stuff. That said, tortoises are not social pets like dogs. They don't want cuddles and playing or company. They don't really show affection, just a love of the green stuff that you feed them.

It is always less stressful to do things when your tort hasn't warmed up properly. Competely cold in a hibernation like state, you could be handling a house brick and they couldn't care less what you do. Warmed up, they can think and panic. Joe has a chequered history and has had to make occasional visits to the vet for hormone treatment. He gets very stressed in a box in the car and I never let him bask before I take him.

 

[T1ME1]

The behavior you're experiencing is almost identical to my juvenile tortoise's behavior. I have only had my Hermann's tortoise Pumpkin for about two weeks and he still seems very tentative around me and perhaps a little threatened. If I hover too much around him he also pauses and breathes in a slightly accentuated manner (though it is perfectly normal for a tortoise to shrug their forearms slightly when breathing). Also, if I turn on my lights around 6 as you do Pumpkin will also bed down for the night around 4-5pm. Since Pumpkin pipped on September 8th of last year he is about the same age as your tortoise so it makes sense that their behavior would be so similar, especially since they are new in our homes.

Everything your tortoise is doing seems to be normal, especially since it is mirrored so closely in my and other youngsters' behaviors. I would just give him time to acclimate, as I am trying to do with my little guy. Just stay away from sand, that's typically a no-no.

Thanks Sunny. Good to have further confirmation that the stuff I am experiencing with Lenny is normal. Hopefully perseverane will win him round and he will begin to relax.

The Coir just seemed to stick to him. It is pretty damp and I have been turning it over to keep it moist every other day. I will nip out and buy a spray bottle to help keep it moist.

Hope you have success with your little Tort too. Just want Lenny to get back to the happy, confident little Tort he was when I visited him a few times at the store before bringing him home!

 

[T1ME1]

once your tort learns to relax, it won't be bothered by you watching. In fact it will probably scounging food from you!


Do handle your tort. It helps it to get used to bejng moved around. Until he relaxes a little, do it in conjunction with feeding and soaking... things he likes. That way it will always be associated with positive stuff. That said, tortoises are not social pets like dogs. They don't want cuddles and playing or company. They don't really show affection, just a love of the green stuff that you feed them.

It is always less stressful to do things when your tort hasn't warmed up properly. Competely cold in a hibernation like state, you could be handling a house brick and they couldn't care less what you do. Warmed up, they can think and panic. Joe has a chequered history and has had to make occasional visits to the vet for hormone treatment. He gets very stressed in a box in the car and I never let him bask before I take him.

I have been handling him to move him from his bed to soak, then on to food etc. He has not hidden in his shell but when I put him down he just sits there. Hopefully that will change with time, as you say. I will try getting him out now and again to hand feed him; although that it likely to happen at weekends as he will probably be in bed before I get home during the week.

I am hopeful that he will get used to the new routine and be out in the mornings waiting for his food when I get in there, as the light will be on 1 hour before I go in.

Did you manage to take a look at my setup? I have ordered a tortoise cave as somewhere else for him to hide, and intend to get a few large pebbles or stones to dot around and give him stuff to keep it interesting. Someone else on here (on the thread I linked to above) raised concerns about humidity with a Tortoise Table. Over here though everywhere seems to say that tables are the way to go, and vivariums are a big no-no. Not sure how to measure humidity but hopefully misting every other day should do it. Thanks again for your reply.

 

[JoesMum]

Ah. There's a difference between hand feeding and handling him when you feed. Some hand fed torts start associating food with the hand and will only take it from the hand; they are not that bright! Use feeding time as an opportunity to check him over, soak him and talk to him softly and then put him in the enclosure with food. That way you become the source of food, not the only way of eating it!

I was having trouble with the links on my tablet. I will move to a proper computer later and hopefully your threads will show properly for me!

 

[T1ME1]

Hi @JoesMum so I should just be making sure I just pick him up and check him over, then put him in his soak, and then put food in the enclosure and move him over to be in front of the food?

I soak him in a plastic tub (old takeaway tub I think) and place the tub under the lamp to keep him warm. However, he again just seems to sit there and doesn't move around a lot. Occassionally he puts his head under a bit, but that is it. I have seen videos of other Torts having a whale of a time when they are being soaked, really enjoying it. But it feels like I am just annoying him when I do it . He gives no indication that he is enjoying it at all. He just stands there; although this morning I noticed he made a little clicking noise when he was in there, and again when I put him on the palm of my hand afterwards - not sure what that little noise means!

 

[JoesMum]

Patience! You have only had him a week. Keep doing the same things at roughly the same time each day. Keep checking the temperatures as a change outside can affect the inside. Handle him gently and talk to him and he will come round, I promise...

 

[T1ME1]

Patience! You have only had him a week. Keep doing the same things at roughly the same time each day. Keep checking the temperatures as a change outside can affect the inside. Handle him gently and talk to him and he will come round, I promise...

Ok thank you. I will keep handling him and try to build the relationship. It is difficult at the moment though as I am only seeing him for about 15-20mins per day when I get up, as he is asleep when I get home. Will have to try and do it at the weekends. Is it ok to get him out of his enclosure and bring him downstairs at the weekends do you think, so that I can sit with him on my lap? I know I can't do that for too long at a time because he may get cold, just think it would be nice.

 

[Tom]

Most young torts of any species are shy. Most greeks are more shy than other testudo.

Personally I would not wake him up at that hour and run him through the ringer. I'd just put out food and go to work and let him wake up and bask on his own time. You can soak when you come home.

I would put a flat basking rock, like slate or sand stone, under your basking lamp. You need to temporarily put one of your thermometers probes directly under the basking bulb and measure that temp. Stuck on the wall nearby is good to know the warm end temp, but you also need to know the actual basking temp. Let that probe bake under the lamp for at least a couple of hours at your tortoises carapace height, and this will tell you the actual temperature your tortoise getting directly under the lamp. Adjust, if needed.

I find it best to just go about your routine and not give too much worry about whether the tortoise likes me or not. As long as they are healthy and eating, the personality will come out on its own in time. Hand feeding can sometimes help with this, but most tortoise need to reach 3-4 years old before they really move out of their scared baby phase. In most of the species I keep I see a distinct change in attitude and behavior at that age. Or you could add 4-5 more tortoises and try to increase the foot traffic through your living room.

 

[T1ME1]

Thanks for the advice @Tom

I know they can be shy - just hard to see him so shy now when in the shop he was so outgoing.

I will get a basking stone at the weekend and also move my probe to check actual bssking temp.

In terms of routine I am worried that if I leave him to get up when he likes then I will not see him! Would prefer it if he would adapt to my routine but will ultimately do whatever is best.

Thinking of getting a little camera so that each day I can get in and see what he has been up to and at what times.

 

[T1ME1]

Just thought I would let those who have given me the advice know, I picked up a teracotta plant saucer for Lenny as a new water bowl and also bought some slate to serve his food on and put under the basking lamp!