Introduction and questions about baby sulcata

[Tom]

Bermuda grass is not toxic. I've been feeding it to mine for many years.

You are hearing the wrong advice from Kamp Kenan because he doesn't know better. He is a nice person and he makes videos with good production quality, but he is not an authority on what is good for tortoises or animal behavior.

Tortoises do best as singles. They can sometimes get along in groups. They should never be kept in pairs.

What size is your enclosure?

 

[Reptilony]

I removed the hide not long ago because she flipped herself over it. It's about 2 1/2ft by 1 1/2ft.

 

[Bambam1989]

I removed the hide not long ago because she flipped herself over it. It's about 2 1/2ft by 1 1/2ft.

She needs more cover. The hide is important so she can feel safe. She will climb at the sides otherwise. Fake plants can also help.
The enclosure needs to be bigger too

 

[Tom]

I also use and love the mixes from Tortoisesupply. I think the mix is a trade secret, but I can tell you there are radishes that will sprout up first, then lots other stuff like clover, yarrow, Italian dandelion, etc…

Fennel. Not yarrow...

 

[Reptilony]

What size would be appropriate? I will provide her with a hide as soon as I can. I will also buy a bigger container. I will keep you updated with the changes I make. Also, what is the ideal basking spot temp? I always aim for 100 but some source says between 100-110 and some even say that it may go lower than 100.

 

[Reptilony]

Bermuda grass is not toxic. I've been feeding it to mine for many years.

You are hearing the wrong advice from Kamp Kenan because he doesn't know better. He is a nice person and he makes videos with good production quality, but he is not an authority on what is good for tortoises or animal behavior.

Tortoises do best as singles. They can sometimes get along in groups. They should never be kept in pairs.

What size is your enclosure?

Well that is sad then because I know some people bought a pair so they don’t get ‘’lonely’’ because of this video so they now have to double everything or the tortoises will pay the price.

 

[Reptilony]

Also im afraid of pyramiding because The dirt gets dry super fast so would it be a good idea to add something like a reptifogger?

 

[Tom]

Also im afraid of pyramiding because The dirt gets dry super fast so would it be a good idea to add something like a reptifogger?

It would be better to get a closed chamber so you aren't fighting this constantly.

 

[Reptilony]

It would be better to get a closed chamber so you aren't fighting this constantly.

Yes but I dont know where I would put the heat and uvb lamps and I want to be able to see her and Im afraid it will accumulate the heat so I wont be able to control it effectively and it will alaways rise and if I put ventilation whats the point of making a close chamber. Im also afraid she would suffocate. Maybe I should pour lots of water instead of using a little hand sprayer but then im afraid of mold...

 

[Tom]

Give these a look for inspiration:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/our-new-closed-chamber-for-our-new-group-of-tortoises.138430/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/

You put the heat and lights inside. You use lower wattage bulbs, which is good for you and for the tortoise. The heat and humidity does accumulate, and that is what you want, as opposed to what you have now where the heat and humidity do not accumulate and instead are lost up and into the room where it does you and your tortoise no good, leaving you with a dry tank and a pyramiding tortoise.

You use controlled ventilation and each chamber is different. I have closeable vents on the ones I build and the AP ones come with venting from the factory. On my initial builds, I needed no ventilation because there was enough from the doors and gaps around the edges. These chambers are not hermetically sealed and air tight. They just contain the heat and humidity, so it isn't all lost and mixed into the room air so quickly.

If these enclosure made animals suffocate, would we be advocating them? If they didn't work and produce good results, why would we recommend them?

Spraying does very little. Dumping water into the substrate is the only way to keep it damp. If you are using the correct substrate, orchid bark, it will not mold. That is why we recommend it.

 

[Yvonne G]

Ok and do you know why some poeple avoid bermuda grass? I was gonna buy some but why do they say that the mix doesnt contain bermuda grass like its toxic? Also is this the right place to ask questions or do I have to create a new thread everytime?

It's just because it's very invasive. Deep roots and chokes out all plants around it. But it's good food, in fact it is native to Africa and is one of the sulcata's main grasses to eat in Africa.

 

[Reptilony]

Tom, I'm pretty sure you have said in the past that you don't use UVB lighting for your babies because you get them outside so much. The problem I have is that I can't get mine outside every day, so I feel that it is best to provide them with UVB light. I am currently using a 100 watt Powersun MVB (the smallest wattage it comes in), and it gives off so much heat that if I have it the proper distance from the surface and enclosed my entire table, it would quickly heat the whole thing up to well over 110 degrees.
Do you Have any suggestions? Would it be better to replace the MVB with a lower wattage heat bulb so that I can enclose the entire table even though I only get my torts outside twice a week right now? Or do you think it is better to continue as I am with as much of my table covered as possible. My little guys do seem to spend lots of time in their humid hide which is generally around 70% humidity.

-JeffG

I have seen your closed chambers and they look good and efficient. However my baby can't be outside yet so I really need my uvb bulb which produce a lot of heat (mercury vapor 150w). My situation is similar to the one I just quoted. Also, I wonder how you provide a cool hide since the air is probably equally hot everywhere in the chamber. Also does the temp go down enough at night? I might try to find some orchid bark since it cannot mold and put a lot more water. I do not want to offend you with my questions and I do not doubt you give good advice but there is just some things that I need to clarify for me in order to give my tort what's best. For exemple I read everywhere that we should never use glass aquarium and I understand why but then members post pics of glass aquariums for juveniles and everyone says it's well made.

 

[Tom]

Tom, I'm pretty sure you have said in the past that you don't use UVB lighting for your babies because you get them outside so much. The problem I have is that I can't get mine outside every day, so I feel that it is best to provide them with UVB light. I am currently using a 100 watt Powersun MVB (the smallest wattage it comes in), and it gives off so much heat that if I have it the proper distance from the surface and enclosed my entire table, it would quickly heat the whole thing up to well over 110 degrees.
Do you Have any suggestions? Would it be better to replace the MVB with a lower wattage heat bulb so that I can enclose the entire table even though I only get my torts outside twice a week right now? Or do you think it is better to continue as I am with as much of my table covered as possible. My little guys do seem to spend lots of time in their humid hide which is generally around 70% humidity.

-JeffG

I have seen your closed chambers and they look good and efficient. However my baby can't be outside yet so I really need my uvb bulb which produce a lot of heat (mercury vapor 150w). My situation is similar to the one I just quoted. Also, I wonder how you provide a cool hide since the air is probably equally hot everywhere in the chamber. Also does the temp go down enough at night? I might try to find some orchid bark since it cannot mold and put a lot more water. I do not want to offend you with my questions and I do not doubt you give good advice but there is just some things that I need to clarify for me in order to give my tort what's best. For exemple I read everywhere that we should never use glass aquarium and I understand why but then members post pics of glass aquariums for juveniles and everyone says it's well made.

Your questions are welcome, not offensive. It is fantastic that you are here and asking these things. So many people drawn incorrect conclusions one way or the other because they get frustrated and leave, or they just choose to listen to the wrong info source. I am happy that you've given me the chance to explain further.

If you need indoor UV, the solution is to use a florescent tube. They run much cooler and don't have the negative side effects of a MVB. I used to recommend MVB in years past, but a couple of things made me stop. Thing 1: We have a vet member here who started testing MVBs with his UV meter and he found that many of them stopped producing UV after only 3 months, even though the bulb still lit up. Thing 2: MVBs are extremely desiccating to little tortoise carapaces. They contribute to pyramiding, even when everything else is done "right". Additionally, the bulbs are fragile, temperamental, must be used with the right kind of fixture and they are expensive. I think they are okay for adult Testudo species in large open tables, but I won't use them for anything else. If you decide to go this route, please let us help you select the right florescent bulb. There are many options, and the misinformation and conflicting information can be rather confusing. We will help you get it right.

Further, in my above answer to Jeff, you probably saw me explain that 2 days a week of sunshine is plenty. They don't need tons of UV all day every day, and @Will has got me convinced that tortoises can utilize ingested D3, and if that is true, then none of us even need UV anymore, as long as we are using a supplement with adequate levels of D3 in it. Will, please confirm for me again. Trying to stop the broken record.

They don't need a cool hide. This is a tropical species. My friend Tomas Diagne of the African Chelonian Institute describes but two season over in Africa where sulcatas occur. There is the hot season, and the hotter season. That's it. There is no cool season or winter. Their "winter" temps are darn close to my summer temps here. Ambient near 100 every day, and high 60s, low 70s at night above ground. Near 100 all over and high 60s is too hot and too cold for this species, respectively. That is why in the wild, they live underground in burrows where the temperature extremes are averaged out. Wanna guess what temperature my 3' deep burrows here maintain in our hot desert summers? When it is 100+ all day and 60s or 70s at night here, the burrows stay 80 day and night all the time with very little fluctuation. You can look up ground temps throughout the year in US Geological surveys. Here it is 50 in winter and 80 in summer. It only takes about 6 weeks to transition in and out of these two annual extremes, and it does not fluctuate from year to year. Sooooooo, hot temps year round. I like to set my thermostats in my closed chambers to 80 at night time when the lights are off, and I let my heat lamps creep the temp into the low 90s as an ambient temp during the day.

The glass tank thing is a persistent myth. Plain and simple. You'll see it parroted all over the internet. I used to parrot it too. Me, @Yvonne G, and many other keepers have been starting babies in glass tanks for three decades or more and have had no problems. I believe this myth started because someone stuck a wild caught tortoise that was used to roaming miles in the wild into a small indoor tank, and then observed: "Wow, this tortoise is stressed. It must be because it can see out and since there is no glass in nature, I conclude that this invisible barrier must be the problem…" If you stuck that same tortoise in a wooden box of the same small dimensions, it would behave the same. Since the tortoise now can't see out due to the solid wood, the conclusion is more likely to be that the tortoise isn't accepting its new captive conditions, or that the box is too small, which would be correct. Imagine the WC russian tortoise purchased at a large chain pet store and then plopped into a 40 gallon glass tank that the kid selling it said would be fine. An imported russian tortoise needs a huge, well planted outdoor enclosure. If it must be kept indoors, then a large well decorated table is a must. Not a 40 gallon glass tank or tortoise house, or small table. The problem is the small size and stark openness of a tiny tank, not the clear glass.

Keep those questions coming...

 

[Reptilony]

Thank you for your answer, I do plan on changing my whole setup and I got the wood to build anything I want, however I unfortunately still don’t own a house (I am only 22 and still at school) and need to often move so the closed chamber must fit in a fiat 500 and be able to go trough a door. If this is what it takes I would buy immediately a new uvb source such as the one you mentionned. English is not my first language (im sure you could already tell) so im gonna tell you what I think I understood (the temps part was a bit harder for me) and please correct me if im wrong.
Tortoises might not need uvb at all since we can supplement vitamin d3? Mercury vapor bulbs cause pyramiding and may don’t last the appropriate time and are also not good for a close chamber because they produce too much heat. (Well if this is true it should be shouted on top of a mountain because LOTS of people use theses).Tortoises don’t need uvb all day every day. They don’t need a cool side in their chamber ( what I tought was great with the mercury vapor is that the tort could choose to go near or not from the heat source to control it’s internal temps but if they don’t even need a cool side...) About this... when people say they have a humid hide in a closed chamber does that mean that this hide is even more humid than the rest of the chamber? The night temp should be about 80 and day temp in the low 90s?( This doesn’t seem to be a big difference and I read somewhere that they need a big temp difference to be able to digest properly) They burrow to regulate their temps so that they always have a temp of about 80 day and night. (I should put a lot more substrate then) Do you have a place in your chamber where they can get more heat? This part really interest me because it seems that I have always read that they need a place to get hot and a place to cool down, and it’s interesting too because your day temp is not the same as others. And the glass tank is a myth and the problem is rather that the tort don’t want to be in there than the tort hit the glass because it doesn’t understand it’s transparent. I sure would need help to choose the right uvb too...

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Your questions are welcome, not offensive. It is fantastic that you are here and asking these things. So many people drawn incorrect conclusions one way or the other because they get frustrated and leave, or they just choose to listen to the wrong info source. I am happy that you've given me the chance to explain further.

If you need indoor UV, the solution is to use a florescent tube. They run much cooler and don't have the negative side effects of a MVB. I used to recommend MVB in years past, but a couple of things made me stop. Thing 1: We have a vet member here who started testing MVBs with his UV meter and he found that many of them stopped producing UV after only 3 months, even though the bulb still lit up. Thing 2: MVBs are extremely desiccating to little tortoise carapaces. They contribute to pyramiding, even when everything else is done "right". Additionally, the bulbs are fragile, temperamental, must be used with the right kind of fixture and they are expensive. I think they are okay for adult Testudo species in large open tables, but I won't use them for anything else. If you decide to go this route, please let us help you select the right florescent bulb. There are many options, and the misinformation and conflicting information can be rather confusing. We will help you get it right.

Further, in my above answer to Jeff, you probably saw me explain that 2 days a week of sunshine is plenty. They don't need tons of UV all day every day, and @Will has got me convinced that tortoises can utilize ingested D3, and if that is true, then none of us even need UV anymore, as long as we are using a supplement with adequate levels of D3 in it. Will, please confirm for me again. Trying to stop the broken record.

They don't need a cool hide. This is a tropical species. My friend Tomas Diagne of the African Chelonian Institute describes but two season over in Africa where sulcatas occur. There is the hot season, and the hotter season. That's it. There is no cool season or winter. Their "winter" temps are darn close to my summer temps here. Ambient near 100 every day, and high 60s, low 70s at night above ground. Near 100 all over and high 60s is too hot and too cold for this species, respectively. That is why in the wild, they live underground in burrows where the temperature extremes are averaged out. Wanna guess what temperature my 3' deep burrows here maintain in our hot desert summers? When it is 100+ all day and 60s or 70s at night here, the burrows stay 80 day and night all the time with very little fluctuation. You can look up ground temps throughout the year in US Geological surveys. Here it is 50 in winter and 80 in summer. It only takes about 6 weeks to transition in and out of these two annual extremes, and it does not fluctuate from year to year. Sooooooo, hot temps year round. I like to set my thermostats in my closed chambers to 80 at night time when the lights are off, and I let my heat lamps creep the temp into the low 90s as an ambient temp during the day.

The glass tank thing is a persistent myth. Plain and simple. You'll see it parroted all over the internet. I used to parrot it too. Me, @Yvonne G, and many other keepers have been starting babies in glass tanks for three decades or more and have had no problems. I believe this myth started because someone stuck a wild caught tortoise that was used to roaming miles in the wild into a small indoor tank, and then observed: "Wow, this tortoise is stressed. It must be because it can see out and since there is no glass in nature, I conclude that this invisible barrier must be the problem…" If you stuck that same tortoise in a wooden box of the same small dimensions, it would behave the same. Since the tortoise now can't see out due to the solid wood, the conclusion is more likely to be that the tortoise isn't accepting its new captive conditions, or that the box is too small, which would be correct. Imagine the WC russian tortoise purchased at a large chain pet store and then plopped into a 40 gallon glass tank that the kid selling it said would be fine. An imported russian tortoise needs a huge, well planted outdoor enclosure. If it must be kept indoors, then a large well decorated table is a must. Not a 40 gallon glass tank or tortoise house, or small table. The problem is the small size and stark openness of a tiny tank, not the clear glass.

Keep those questions coming...

Hi Tom, it does work, the un-answered question is amount. I use Vionate and layer crumbles 4 to 5 days a week, and both have D3 in them. That still does not address the question on amount provided in terms of grams of D3/grams of tortoise over some amount of time. So far so good using these sources. As Mark pointed out elsewhere Mazuri has D3 in it as well, they suggest it can be a sole ration, so some backward math and how much a tortoise fills up on Mazuri might offer an amount utilized? There are a few references from Dr. Sue Donaghue(sp) suggesting an acceptable amount, but it is not broken down to life stages or time of year. D3 acts as a reproductive hormone at some levels of consumption (at least in humans, postmenopausal women getting a period again after high doses) so it seems possible that this could occur in tortoises as well. Keep in mind peek reproductive activity in tortoises (in terms of measured reproductive hormones) is in the spring and fall, when 'basking' is done at a higher rate, therefore more D3 synthesis and more hormones. A bit of a stretch on drawing conclusions, I agree, but that narrative all fits and one past curator/vet I worked for seemed to think this was a reasonable explanation for reptile reproductive behavior.

Another concern is too much. I would guess they have a system to alleviate that, or else 'basking behavior would have to be better controlled (not falling asleep in direct sun for hours at a time on cooler days), and that assumes ingested D3 could be as well regulated in their bodies as that produced by basking/synthesis.

 

[Markw84]

The main issue I have with dietary D3 is the very high probability of overdose. Vitamin D overdose is very serious. You can easily overdose Vitamin D and that is a great cause for concern. As it lasts in the system and bloodstream quite a while, (weeks) it can quickly build up to toxic levels. (That is also why a tortoise is fine with no UVB exposure for several weeks in the winter.) D3 created by exposure to UVB cannot overdose. The pre-vitamin D created with UVB exposure simply will not convert to D3 if the levels in the bloodstream are already high enough. So there is absolutely no way for an animal to overdose on vitamin D through UVB exposure. They can spend all day in the sun and simply no more D3 is converted until the blood levels drop and more is needed. It does not work that way with dietary vitamin D. So we must err on the side of too little with dietary D3. That is the problem. Allowing the tortoises' metabolism regulate the the threshold through natural UVB synthesis is therefore best.

A concern I would have but we never really address is the potential problem of keeping tortoises in very high latitude areas of the world. Natural UVB from sunlight is simply not at levels of much benefit for a tortoise much of the year. Once you get above 45° latitude, there is half the year where outside is simply not going to provide enough UVB. So providing proper artificial UVB becomes absolutely necessary.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

The main issue I have with dietary D3 is the very high probability of overdose. Vitamin D overdose is very serious. You can easily overdose Vitamin D and that is a great cause for concern. As it lasts in the system and bloodstream quite a while, (weeks) it can quickly build up to toxic levels. (That is also why a tortoise is fine with no UVB exposure for several weeks in the winter.) D3 created by exposure to UVB cannot overdose. The pre-vitamin D created with UVB exposure simply will not convert to D3 if the levels in the bloodstream are already high enough. So there is absolutely no way for an animal to overdose on vitamin D through UVB exposure. They can spend all day in the sun and simply no more D3 is converted until the blood levels drop and more is needed. It does not work that way with dietary vitamin D. So we must err on the side of too little with dietary D3. That is the problem. Allowing the tortoises' metabolism regulate the the threshold through natural UVB synthesis is therefore best.

A concern I would have but we never really address is the potential problem of keeping tortoises in very high latitude areas of the world. Natural UVB from sunlight is simply not at levels of much benefit for a tortoise much of the year. Once you get above 45° latitude, there is half the year where outside is simply not going to provide enough UVB. So providing proper artificial UVB becomes absolutely necessary.

The same had been considered true regarding Vitamin A with 'chelonians' and while many box turtles have been killed by well intentioned vets by too much vitamin A, this does not seem to be the case for tortoises, so says Dr. Boyer. Mark, what publication and what species are you talking about regarding which vitamin D as potentially toxic?

The post menopausal women getting a period again was sorted out through the inclusion of D3 in an older version of Centrum Silver, they switch to using D2.

 

[Reptilony]

Your questions are welcome, not offensive. It is fantastic that you are here and asking these things. So many people drawn incorrect conclusions one way or the other because they get frustrated and leave, or they just choose to listen to the wrong info source. I am happy that you've given me the chance to explain further.

If you need indoor UV, the solution is to use a florescent tube. They run much cooler and don't have the negative side effects of a MVB. I used to recommend MVB in years past, but a couple of things made me stop. Thing 1: We have a vet member here who started testing MVBs with his UV meter and he found that many of them stopped producing UV after only 3 months, even though the bulb still lit up. Thing 2: MVBs are extremely desiccating to little tortoise carapaces. They contribute to pyramiding, even when everything else is done "right". Additionally, the bulbs are fragile, temperamental, must be used with the right kind of fixture and they are expensive. I think they are okay for adult Testudo species in large open tables, but I won't use them for anything else. If you decide to go this route, please let us help you select the right florescent bulb. There are many options, and the misinformation and conflicting information can be rather confusing. We will help you get it right.

Further, in my above answer to Jeff, you probably saw me explain that 2 days a week of sunshine is plenty. They don't need tons of UV all day every day, and @Will has got me convinced that tortoises can utilize ingested D3, and if that is true, then none of us even need UV anymore, as long as we are using a supplement with adequate levels of D3 in it. Will, please confirm for me again. Trying to stop the broken record.

They don't need a cool hide. This is a tropical species. My friend Tomas Diagne of the African Chelonian Institute describes but two season over in Africa where sulcatas occur. There is the hot season, and the hotter season. That's it. There is no cool season or winter. Their "winter" temps are darn close to my summer temps here. Ambient near 100 every day, and high 60s, low 70s at night above ground. Near 100 all over and high 60s is too hot and too cold for this species, respectively. That is why in the wild, they live underground in burrows where the temperature extremes are averaged out. Wanna guess what temperature my 3' deep burrows here maintain in our hot desert summers? When it is 100+ all day and 60s or 70s at night here, the burrows stay 80 day and night all the time with very little fluctuation. You can look up ground temps throughout the year in US Geological surveys. Here it is 50 in winter and 80 in summer. It only takes about 6 weeks to transition in and out of these two annual extremes, and it does not fluctuate from year to year. Sooooooo, hot temps year round. I like to set my thermostats in my closed chambers to 80 at night time when the lights are off, and I let my heat lamps creep the temp into the low 90s as an ambient temp during the day.

The glass tank thing is a persistent myth. Plain and simple. You'll see it parroted all over the internet. I used to parrot it too. Me, @Yvonne G, and many other keepers have been starting babies in glass tanks for three decades or more and have had no problems. I believe this myth started because someone stuck a wild caught tortoise that was used to roaming miles in the wild into a small indoor tank, and then observed: "Wow, this tortoise is stressed. It must be because it can see out and since there is no glass in nature, I conclude that this invisible barrier must be the problem…" If you stuck that same tortoise in a wooden box of the same small dimensions, it would behave the same. Since the tortoise now can't see out due to the solid wood, the conclusion is more likely to be that the tortoise isn't accepting its new captive conditions, or that the box is too small, which would be correct. Imagine the WC russian tortoise purchased at a large chain pet store and then plopped into a 40 gallon glass tank that the kid selling it said would be fine. An imported russian tortoise needs a huge, well planted outdoor enclosure. If it must be kept indoors, then a large well decorated table is a must. Not a 40 gallon glass tank or tortoise house, or small table. The problem is the small size and stark openness of a tiny tank, not the clear glass.

Keep those questions coming...

Well I just ordered a thermostat, a uvb tube(22in from zoo med), a hygrometer, and two ceramic heaters. It says the thermostats can change from day to night temps which is exactly what I need. I’ve looked at your thread about closed chambers for babies and will try to make something similar. I’m still not sure about the temps part because you said you have a basking spot of around 100 so there is still a cooler side and the tort can thermoregulate that way? Anyway, I’ll try to build that thing now...

 

[Tom]

Well I just ordered a thermostat, a uvb tube(22in from zoo med), a hygrometer, and two ceramic heaters. It says the thermostats can change from day to night temps which is exactly what I need. I’ve looked at your thread about closed chambers for babies and will try to make something similar. I’m still not sure about the temps part because you said you have a basking spot of around 100 so there is still a cooler side and the tort can thermoregulate that way? Anyway, I’ll try to build that thing now...

Set your CHEs on the thermostat to maintain an ambient of no lower than 80 day or night. Then set the basking lamp so the temp under it is around 95-100 F. The basking lamp will usually creep the ambient up and over 80, so the CHE's will stay off all day, unless needed, and the ambient can warm up a bit.

 

[Reptilony]

Is this a good substrate or orchid bark is better?