DozerCooley
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Dozer weighs roughly 5 and a half pounds, but who knows how much of that is stone. Yikes! Do you remember the circumstances or outcome of the tortoise that also had their scute cut down? Thanks!
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Sulcata Bladder Stone Surgery
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Dozer weighs roughly 5 and a half pounds, but who knows how much of that is stone. Yikes! Do you remember the circumstances or outcome of the tortoise that also had their scute cut down? Thanks!
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I respectfully disagree. There is no evidence in any stone in any tortoise that suggest the cause was due to oxalates in the diet. None, not one single stone anaylized has ever been the result of an oxalate high diet. Iv'e said this many times here on TFO.
Please see my presentation to TTPG for my review on the topic. https://kapidolofarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/With-notes-KapidoloFarmsTTPG.pdf
Oh, hell, if someone finds a published account that shows a result* of a tortoise having a urolith resulting from oxalates, I'll give them a $100 credit at Kapidolo Farms. Life time offer, redeemable only one time.
*A result is the product of analysis, not speculation, even if written by a veterinarian.
DozerCooley
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Yes the exotic vet that Dozer is seeing at Cornell Animal Hospital said that a diet high in protein could play a role in getting a stone. They also mentioned not getting enough uvb lighting and not enough hydration through both drinking and soaking could also raise their possibilities of getting a stone. They also said in Dozer's case it could be partly due to the fact that her very back scute is deformed where it actually curls under a bit at the bottom and presses her tail up against her back side making it hard for her to go to the bathroom correctly. This deformity comes from the same type of reasons that pyramiding happens. It seems Dozer didn't quite get the best care from her previous owners but hopefully moving forward we will be given the chance to correct all that and give her a much happier much more comfortable life.
With my current understanding and position on stones, I watch three main factors for keeping them as controlled as may be possible - hydration, protein intake, and temperatures.
stones in tortoises all seem to be purine based in origin. It is the metabolic processes from handling proteins in the diet that creates the higher concentrations of uric acid in their system. This is more pronounced with any animal proteins that may be in the diet such as if the tortoise is finding lots of worms or snails and eating them yet is a grass diet species. This seems to be more commonly seen in sulcatas. If the diet also tends towards a more acidic level, that may also increase the possibilities of developing stones.
Tortoises have a urinary system that is designed to save water in their system as much as possible. This means they hold much higher levels of uric acid as it is more soluble than urine - so they do not produce urine. Whenever they get a chance, they dump water from the bladder and replenish with new water. This immediately reduces the uric acid level. They also have the ability to let the uric acid develop into urates and can expel the urates in a semi-solid mass without expelling their water. These are the principle ways they can control uric acid buildups. So hydration is key in that it allows them to empty and replace water regularly and keep uric acid levels low.
Temperature also appears to be a factor in my opinion. The solubility of uric acid is effected tremendously by temperature. … and temperatures in the ranges we normally experience. At lower temperatures the solubility of uric acid is amazingly lower than at temperatures just a bit higher. SO when a tortoise is kept at temperatures in the 60° - 70° range, the uric acid precipitates much quicker and much less can be held in solution.
I believe this is where we see this so much more with sulcatas in particular. Their metabolism is not adapted to operate a lower temperatures, yet so many people seem to think they "do fine". A temperate species will stop eating and flush its system of purines and metabolic uric acid to a great degree prior to cool temperature shut downs or slow downs. Sulcatas do no do this. Their metabolism needs to stay active and if put in a cooler situation, the higher levels of "normal" uric acid are sitting in the bladder and as the temperatures cool, more and more precipitates into solids.
I also believe that some are just more prone to this as well. Just as with humans and other animals, some seem to deal with these issues without developing stones, while they will form with others when exposed to these conditions.
So, for me, I like to ensure they are well hydrated with constant access to water.
They are fed a diet with a "normal" range of proteins for the species, and do not have access to animal protein sources they can scavange.
They are kept at a proper temperature to allow for active metabolic activity every day.
stones in tortoises all seem to be purine based in origin. It is the metabolic processes from handling proteins in the diet that creates the higher concentrations of uric acid in their system. This is more pronounced with any animal proteins that may be in the diet such as if the tortoise is finding lots of worms or snails and eating them yet is a grass diet species. This seems to be more commonly seen in sulcatas. If the diet also tends towards a more acidic level, that may also increase the possibilities of developing stones.
Tortoises have a urinary system that is designed to save water in their system as much as possible. This means they hold much higher levels of uric acid as it is more soluble than urine - so they do not produce urine. Whenever they get a chance, they dump water from the bladder and replenish with new water. This immediately reduces the uric acid level. They also have the ability to let the uric acid develop into urates and can expel the urates in a semi-solid mass without expelling their water. These are the principle ways they can control uric acid buildups. So hydration is key in that it allows them to empty and replace water regularly and keep uric acid levels low.
Temperature also appears to be a factor in my opinion. The solubility of uric acid is effected tremendously by temperature. … and temperatures in the ranges we normally experience. At lower temperatures the solubility of uric acid is amazingly lower than at temperatures just a bit higher. SO when a tortoise is kept at temperatures in the 60° - 70° range, the uric acid precipitates much quicker and much less can be held in solution.
I believe this is where we see this so much more with sulcatas in particular. Their metabolism is not adapted to operate a lower temperatures, yet so many people seem to think they "do fine". A temperate species will stop eating and flush its system of purines and metabolic uric acid to a great degree prior to cool temperature shut downs or slow downs. Sulcatas do no do this. Their metabolism needs to stay active and if put in a cooler situation, the higher levels of "normal" uric acid are sitting in the bladder and as the temperatures cool, more and more precipitates into solids.
I also believe that some are just more prone to this as well. Just as with humans and other animals, some seem to deal with these issues without developing stones, while they will form with others when exposed to these conditions.
So, for me, I like to ensure they are well hydrated with constant access to water.
They are fed a diet with a "normal" range of proteins for the species, and do not have access to animal protein sources they can scavange.
They are kept at a proper temperature to allow for active metabolic activity every day.
Sorry Will I was typing while you responded and did not see this. I agree completely with you - as you can see from my response.
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Same point - different messages.
Will I started reading your link on my cell phone got through the first 3 or 4 pages and decided I will finish on the computer. I went to your website and saw the tortoises you have for sale. I noticed no sulcata's. So the diet you were feeding your crew would it be advisable for sullies?
Thanks for the link. Sounds interesting.
I guess we should start another thread. This one is for Dozer and Ashley. Keeping my fingers crossed hope you are also @Bee62 
Duly chastened.
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Yes, a sulcata is reasonably close to a leopard in food range choices, and I have leopards. A few sulcata now two, but they are babies that I'll vend at a show.
Thank you. I know my girls stone formed due to lack of hydration. Stick with this forum on the proper care post surgery and you will have a happy and healthy tort. I so wish I had found this forum 10 years ago.So sorry to hear of your loss
Would you suspect that Maggie's Bob's stone was caused by being in a colder environment (Oregon)? Even though he had a warm barn always available, were his winter outings causing him damage? Is there a problem with keeping a sulcata in a heated night box but allowing him to come out and graze for a few hours a day in 50F or lower temperatures? At what temperature and for how long would he have to be out repeatedly to do this kind of damage? How would we know if we are inadvertently causing this problem for our tortoises? Have we seen similar problems with the sulcatas that members keep in very cold climates, like Canada and the eastern US?
Or are you saying that as long as they are warm enough at some point during each day to allow active metabolic activity, and sufficiently hydrated, they shouldn't develop stones?
It was recent so I haven't heard about any long term problems. I can't remember much of it. I think their problem was that the tortoise seemed constipated, and they figured it was due to the curve of the shell. Once they cut it down, it seemed to fix the issue. I remember their vet saying it might affect the tortoise's ability to mate. I believe it was a male.
Good questions. We just don't know the answers. Because it is known that the solubility of uric acid is extremely changed with temperatures in the ranges we deal with, more urates will precipitate and can certainly also crystalize at lower temperatures. This causes me to be much more cautious about keeping a sulcata at lower temperatures, especially without good hydration. The cooler the sulcata is over the course of the day, and the less exposure to basking stimulating conditions as in winter, the less they will drink and exchange the water they hold. So we can potentially have high uric acid concentrations, combined with a lower core temp that causes greater precipitation. Sounds like a potential for increased chances for stone developing. So in response to a question about what can be done to help reduce the risk for stones, I think it a valid consideration. To what extent? We don't know.
DozerCooley
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Update on Dozer: She is preparing for surgery so she hasn't eaten since Monday night and isn't happy one little bit about this. We have a camera up to watch her during the day while we are at work and it is just heart breaking watching her walk around her enclosure looking for food. She's doing great and will have her surgery at Cornell some time tomorrow. They expect us to take her home, pending everything goes well, as soon as her anesthesia wears off - which they were guessing would be late Friday or Saturday. Thanks again for keeping her in your thoughts!
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Wishing you all well.
I really think it's OK, to give clover, in moderation like a lot of other stuff that is a part of the tortoise diet. A lot of other food items should also not be given in excess!
Oxalates are said to cause stones in humans. If they don't cause stones in tortoises, are there any other problems with feeding tortoises oxalates?
Anxiously waiting to hear how it goes.
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