Tortoise Table Refuses to Stay Warm - Help!

[Frantastic]

Hi all.

So last month, I inherited this beautiful little Hermann Tortoise, Fran, after her previous owner (also named Fran) was killed by Covid-19. Horribly sad circumstances, I know. But it brought this adorable little animal into my life and ever since, I've been utterly obsessed with her and her happiness. I think she's between 6 to 9 months old.

Unfortunately, Human Fran wasn't much for animal husbandry and by the time she came to me, Tortoise Fran had inadequate equipment as well as dehydration, weepy swollen eyes and potential respiratory problems (she squeaks occasionally). Now, I'm completely new to owning reptiles and know next to nothing, but having done as much research as I possibly can, both here and on the greater wide internet, I've managed to crop together a better habitat for her. She is also making recoveries in her health (had a Skype session with the vet today and got the all clear pending a poo sample in the post - yum!).

The big issue that I'm having is with Fran's Tortoise Table (I call it 'The Drawer'). It almost NEVER stays at the correct temperature for Fran, regardless of how long I have the lights on for. It's gotten me so worried about Fran that I've had a hot water bottle propped up against the (outside) of the table, as well as a space heater (again, on the outside), in a bid to warm up the ambient table temperature. However, nothing works! I'm sat here roasting to death beside the space heater and still, it isn't enough to get the correct temperature Fran needs.

The thermometer read 32c today during my Skype with the vet (which is perfect) but within two hours, it dropped to about 15c and stayed there indefinitely, even WITH the space heater going! I've been dealing with this problem on and off for over two weeks now and it's driving me absolutely insane! Poor Fran is in various states of activity all the time due to the temperature and I'm worried that this constant to and fro will eventually have a negative impact on her health.

Here are some basic details:

- Fran came to me with only one light; a 200W (I assume) basking bulb. I've been told by the vet this is an unusually high wattage to have but apparently it shouldn't cause problems. Since then, I've invested in a Komodo UV 10W strip light too.
- Both the UV and basking light are switched on from 8am to 8.30pm
- Temperature rarely reaches above 35c but is commonly in the 18c-20c region - far from high enough!
- As I live in a loft bedsit, I sometimes open the windows to get some airflow through the tortoise table, but never for more than ten minutes at a time due to the inconsistent temperatures

I've included some pictures of the lighting and tortoise table set up for help.

Please, if someone could help me to understand why these bulbs aren't producing enough heat for Fran, I would be eternally grateful. Is there something wrong with the bulb? Do I need an additional light? Is it something that is unsuitable in the surrounding environment?

Thank you.

(Please ignore the spoon - it's for scooping poop)

 

[LasTortugasNinja]

You can get a temperature gun to measure the heat under the bulb and in several areas of "the drawer". 200W bulb is way overkill. I use a 100w uv/heat bulb for basking and a ceramic heat emitter for ambient heat for the rest of the enclosure. Similar set up for my monitor lizard too. This allows a nice gradient to develop so the tort can move about and get the temp needed at the time. Also, try to mimic the natural range for temps and humidity using timers (most humid in the morning, less in the afternoon - cool in the morning and evening, warmest around noon to 4).
Creating a natural rhythm is a pain to set up, but IMHO worth it for the psychology of the reptile.

Only exceptions for ill or baby reps, who have special requirements.

 

[Frantastic]

You can get a temperature gun to measure the heat under the bulb and in several areas of "the drawer". 200W bulb is way overkill. I use a 100w uv/heat bulb for basking and a ceramic heat emitter for ambient heat for the rest of the enclosure. Similar set up for my monitor lizard too. This allows a nice gradient to develop so the tort can move about and get the temp needed at the time. Also, try to mimic the natural range for temps and humidity using timers (most humid in the morning, less in the afternoon - cool in the morning and evening, warmest around noon to 4).
Creating a natural rhythm is a pain to set up, but IMHO worth it for the psychology of the reptile.

Only exceptions for ill or baby reps, who have special requirements.

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. Is the 200W likely to actually cause Fran burns or anything like that? The vet was definitely surprised too. Can I ask what wattage your ceramic heat emitter is also? I think that might be the solution, as I'm otherwise stumped on what to do/buy/install.

 

[Ink]

I am sorry to hear about your friend, I am happy you are taking care of her tortoise. I am working on my new to me , Hermann I rescued, new home. His temporary home is a wood box that they gave me with my tort. It sucks. Hopefully someone can help you.

 

[Frantastic]

I am sorry to hear about your friend, I am happy you are taking care of her tortoise. I am working on my new to me , Hermann I rescued, new home. His temporary home is a wood box that they gave me with my tort. It sucks. Hopefully someone can help you.

Thank you for your kind words. As frustrating as this temperature faff is, I'm so grateful that at least some good came from this tragedy; I love little Fran's personality and she's so much fun to watch for such a tiny creature. Instant love! It's funny really; she's quite similar in character to Human Fran, which is a lovely reminder of the wonderful person she was before we lost her.

I'm sorry to hear that you've found yourself in a similar predicament with little Hermann but hopefully he won't have to stay in the box for too much longer. This forum definitely seems like a great source of information so far. I hope the remainder of lockdown brings you and Hermann nothing but good things.

 

[Ink]

They are so cute! I just try to keep his wood box covered and humid, it seems like alot. Tell little Fran HEY. Just do the best you can someone here I am sure went through this with you exact box. Keep up posted please

 

[Maro2Bear]

Greetings.

An open topped drawer like you have will pretty much always cool off toward temps of the ambient room temps in your flat.

Take a read through this Care Guide

Sticky: HERMANN'S TORTOISE CARE SHEET *UPDATED

Josh and I corresponded last week about making an updated version of the Hermann's tortoise care sheet since the old one we have posted here is a bit outdated and a little too brief in my opinion. So, here is the new one equipped with photos. Look out for the April 2015 issue of Reptiles...

www.tortoiseforum.org

ps - look to swap out your substrate as soon as you can. (best to skip sand)

. A suitable substrate is clean top soil mixed with coconut coir or peat moss. I prefer to ad sand into this mix to help generate a substrate that replicates what they experience in nature more closely. However, using sand has been known to cause impaction in reptiles which can lead to death. Although in more than 20 years we have never experienced this with any of our tortoises kept on it, this does not mean it won’t happen to your animal(s). Use caution or simply don’t use the sand. The substrate can be up to 4” deep to allow for burrowing. Burrowing is 100% normal! Do not be alarmed by his behavior while they are this young. They are babies after all and babies sleep. I also recommend adding cypress mulch as a 2” top layer but you can also mix it in to the existing substrate. The mulch aids in keeping an adequate humidity level which should be around 70%. Do not let the substrate dry out entirely by keeping a spray bottle filled with water on hand to mist the enclosure. A common misconception regarding tortoise keeping is thinking they must be kept very dry. This is in fact not true and we now know that pyramiding (unnatural, lumpy growth of the carapace scutes)is directly linked to improper humidity levels along with insufficient hydration. In nature, baby tortoises spend a great deal of time burrowed into the ground, under leaf litter or jammed under debris. There, it is humid, moist and dark. They are programmed to hide and typically do not venture out anywhere near as much as older specimens. By doing this they are constantly subjected to a higher level of humidity than one might assume.

 

[Yvonne G]

Your tortoise is a russian.

 

[LasTortugasNinja]

I have several ceramic heat emitters at different wattages depending on the season, ranging from 25w to 150w. Spring, summer, and fall, I generally use the lower wattage, since they really only get used to nip the morning chill, as I live where "warm" is only really one month a year. Late fall and winter I use higher wattage, depending on the reptile. My monitor requires quite a bit of heat, as he's a sub-tropical animal with a high metabolism. The tortoise I haven't had during the winter, so I'll have to play around with what works best, but I'm guessing to warm his whole enclosure, I'll probably use an 80 or 100w CHE.

It really depends on the distance you put between the enclosure and the CHE. Stronger bulbs can be further away and warm a larger area... but if you use it closer, you roast the reptile and you have either an outright cooked reptile, a burned reptile, or humidity problems. A lot of people place the CHE on stands 12" to 14" above, and those are good for 50w to 80w CHE, but if you have something stronger than that, I'd go much higher. A 200W CHE is for a room-sized enclosure, greenhouse, or a chicken coupe.

 

[Tom]

You don't have a Hermann's tortoise. It is a Russian tortoise.

It makes no sense the the temperature would fluctuate this much, unless the entire room temperature is fluctuating tremendously. A 65 watt incandescent flood bulb, when set at the correct height, should be sufficient to warm that basking area under it to around 37C. A 200 watt bulb will do it too, but it will need to be much farther away, and you'll get a much larger warmed area.

How are you measuring the temperature? You should be using something like this from the hardware store:



If you continue to have issues with this, the easiest and best solution is to separate the room air from the enclosure air. Get a vivarium. A large one.

Here is the correct care info for Russian tortoises:

Beginner Mistakes

To comment on Tom's article, go here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-split-Beginner-Mistakes#axzz1tG8s05M5 Over the years many of us, myself included, have made many of these mistakes, and we have certainly seen them made many times by others. With springtime upon us and many new...

tortoiseforum.org

Russian Tortoise Care Sheet

Russian tortoises have great personalities, are very hardy, tolerate a wide variety of enclosure parameters, stay small, and are generally a good "starter" tortoise in my opinion. Here is how I like to set them up: Indoor Enclosure type and size: Most people want to know the minimum size...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Frantastic]

Your tortoise is a russian.

You don't have a Hermann's tortoise. It is a Russian tortoise.

It makes no sense the the temperature would fluctuate this much, unless the entire room temperature is fluctuating tremendously. A 65 watt incandescent flood bulb, when set at the correct height, should be sufficient to warm that basking area under it to around 37C. A 200 watt bulb will do it too, but it will need to be much farther away, and you'll get a much larger warmed area.

How are you measuring the temperature? You should be using something like this from the hardware store:
View attachment 292882


If you continue to have issues with this, the easiest and best solution is to separate the room air from the enclosure air. Get a vivarium. A large one.

Here is the correct care info for Russian tortoises:

Beginner Mistakes

To comment on Tom's article, go here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-split-Beginner-Mistakes#axzz1tG8s05M5 Over the years many of us, myself included, have made many of these mistakes, and we have certainly seen them made many times by others. With springtime upon us and many new...

tortoiseforum.org

Russian Tortoise Care Sheet

Russian tortoises have great personalities, are very hardy, tolerate a wide variety of enclosure parameters, stay small, and are generally a good "starter" tortoise in my opinion. Here is how I like to set them up: Indoor Enclosure type and size: Most people want to know the minimum size...

tortoiseforum.org

Omg you're right! Thank you both, I had no idea she was a Russian - even the vet yesterday didn't correct me when I told him (as I was told) that I thought Fran was a Hermann. But I've just looked up pictures, studied the markings and you're absolutely right! Wow. Well, that'll make research a lot easier at least. Thank you for the links to the care sheet; I'll go study them now and make sure the requirements aren't too drastically different from a Hermann's. Poor Fran's going to end up with an identity complex if I don't get this right soon....

Currently the only thermometer I have is one of those stick on Exo-Terra jobs and I'm not entirely convinced that it's reliable. I'll be making the trip today to purchase a digital one instead. I have also moved the 200W basking light about a foot further away from The Drawer in the hopes it heats the entire enclosure a little more effectively instead of roasting one spot.

 

[Frantastic]

I have several ceramic heat emitters at different wattages depending on the season, ranging from 25w to 150w. Spring, summer, and fall, I generally use the lower wattage, since they really only get used to nip the morning chill, as I live where "warm" is only really one month a year. Late fall and winter I use higher wattage, depending on the reptile. My monitor requires quite a bit of heat, as he's a sub-tropical animal with a high metabolism. The tortoise I haven't had during the winter, so I'll have to play around with what works best, but I'm guessing to warm his whole enclosure, I'll probably use an 80 or 100w CHE.

It really depends on the distance you put between the enclosure and the CHE. Stronger bulbs can be further away and warm a larger area... but if you use it closer, you roast the reptile and you have either an outright cooked reptile, a burned reptile, or humidity problems. A lot of people place the CHE on stands 12" to 14" above, and those are good for 50w to 80w CHE, but if you have something stronger than that, I'd go much higher. A 200W CHE is for a room-sized enclosure, greenhouse, or a chicken coupe.

Thanks so much for your input, this is really helpful! I also live in a country where the weather is fairly Bipolar, so it's good to have a comparison from someone with similar circumstances. As of reading your post, I've moved the 200W bulb up onto the shelf above it, at least a good foot and a half further away than it was. I'm hoping that as you said, this will more evenly heat up The Drawer instead of roasting one spot. Fingers crossed!

I've already been doing some research into ceramic heat emitters and will be pricing one up today. I think first and foremost though, I need to find a more reliable digital thermometer.

Also just found out that apparently Fran is a Russian and not a Hermann, so might have to do a little bit of research first on the different species requirements.

 

[Frantastic]

Greetings.

An open topped drawer like you have will pretty much always cool off toward temps of the ambient room temps in your flat.

Take a read through this Care Guide

Sticky: HERMANN'S TORTOISE CARE SHEET *UPDATED

Josh and I corresponded last week about making an updated version of the Hermann's tortoise care sheet since the old one we have posted here is a bit outdated and a little too brief in my opinion. So, here is the new one equipped with photos. Look out for the April 2015 issue of Reptiles...

www.tortoiseforum.org

ps - look to swap out your substrate as soon as you can. (best to skip sand)

. A suitable substrate is clean top soil mixed with coconut coir or peat moss. I prefer to ad sand into this mix to help generate a substrate that replicates what they experience in nature more closely. However, using sand has been known to cause impaction in reptiles which can lead to death. Although in more than 20 years we have never experienced this with any of our tortoises kept on it, this does not mean it won’t happen to your animal(s). Use caution or simply don’t use the sand. The substrate can be up to 4” deep to allow for burrowing. Burrowing is 100% normal! Do not be alarmed by his behavior while they are this young. They are babies after all and babies sleep. I also recommend adding cypress mulch as a 2” top layer but you can also mix it in to the existing substrate. The mulch aids in keeping an adequate humidity level which should be around 70%. Do not let the substrate dry out entirely by keeping a spray bottle filled with water on hand to mist the enclosure. A common misconception regarding tortoise keeping is thinking they must be kept very dry. This is in fact not true and we now know that pyramiding (unnatural, lumpy growth of the carapace scutes)is directly linked to improper humidity levels along with insufficient hydration. In nature, baby tortoises spend a great deal of time burrowed into the ground, under leaf litter or jammed under debris. There, it is humid, moist and dark. They are programmed to hide and typically do not venture out anywhere near as much as older specimens. By doing this they are constantly subjected to a higher level of humidity than one might assume.

Thanks so much for the information, that's really helpful! Yes, the substrate is unfortunately the only temporary measure I could get from the pet store until her top soil arrives (believe it's being delivered today). The pellets are almost as big as she is! Must be like walking over boulders for her, poor mite. She's also an avid digger and so I'm looking forward to giving her some more appropriate substrate to burrow in. She'll be getting a good update today when the delivery comes.

 

[jeannettep]

I think Tom wrote somewhere on the forum to put foil on top to control temp & humidity. That has worked great for us, but we had to play with how much foil to use. We only have partially covered. We use che bulbs on an inkbird regulator. So agree get a temp gun. But I dont know anything about the needs of this specific species. But I like air conditioning, a lot of it. So maintaining heat was a challenge. Also you may not know how long the other uvb bulb was used. They should be replaced every 6 month.

 

[LasTortugasNinja]

Also you may not know how long the other uvb bulb was used. They should be replaced every 6 month.

UVB bulbs can last up to 2 years before noticeable drops in levels of uvb. 6 months is pure money for the bulb makers. There are various uvb monitors that can be found for $60 to $200 that will tell you how your bulb is aging.

 

[Tom]

I think Tom wrote somewhere on the forum to put foil on top to control temp & humidity. That has worked great for us, but we had to play with how much foil to use. We only have partially covered. We use che bulbs on an inkbird regulator. So agree get a temp gun. But I dont know anything about the needs of this specific species. But I like air conditioning, a lot of it. So maintaining heat was a challenge. Also you may not know how long the other uvb bulb was used. They should be replaced every 6 month.

The credit for that idea goes to @Yvonne G or @maggie18fan I can't remember which one of them said it first so many years ago, but it wasn't my idea. I was just repeating their brilliance.

 

[Maggie3fan]

The credit for that idea goes to @Yvonne G or @maggie18fan I can't remember which one of them said it first so many years ago, but it wasn't my idea. I was just repeating their brilliance.

Thanks ever so... but I'm just not that brilliant..I learned it from Yvonne...

 

[TomtheGreek]

Hi all.

So last month, I inherited this beautiful little Hermann Tortoise, Fran, after her previous owner (also named Fran) was killed by Covid-19. Horribly sad circumstances, I know. But it brought this adorable little animal into my life and ever since, I've been utterly obsessed with her and her happiness. I think she's between 6 to 9 months old.

Unfortunately, Human Fran wasn't much for animal husbandry and by the time she came to me, Tortoise Fran had inadequate equipment as well as dehydration, weepy swollen eyes and potential respiratory problems (she squeaks occasionally). Now, I'm completely new to owning reptiles and know next to nothing, but having done as much research as I possibly can, both here and on the greater wide internet, I've managed to crop together a better habitat for her. She is also making recoveries in her health (had a Skype session with the vet today and got the all clear pending a poo sample in the post - yum!).

The big issue that I'm having is with Fran's Tortoise Table (I call it 'The Drawer'). It almost NEVER stays at the correct temperature for Fran, regardless of how long I have the lights on for. It's gotten me so worried about Fran that I've had a hot water bottle propped up against the (outside) of the table, as well as a space heater (again, on the outside), in a bid to warm up the ambient table temperature. However, nothing works! I'm sat here roasting to death beside the space heater and still, it isn't enough to get the correct temperature Fran needs.

The thermometer read 32c today during my Skype with the vet (which is perfect) but within two hours, it dropped to about 15c and stayed there indefinitely, even WITH the space heater going! I've been dealing with this problem on and off for over two weeks now and it's driving me absolutely insane! Poor Fran is in various states of activity all the time due to the temperature and I'm worried that this constant to and fro will eventually have a negative impact on her health.

Here are some basic details:

- Fran came to me with only one light; a 200W (I assume) basking bulb. I've been told by the vet this is an unusually high wattage to have but apparently it shouldn't cause problems. Since then, I've invested in a Komodo UV 10W strip light too.
- Both the UV and basking light are switched on from 8am to 8.30pm
- Temperature rarely reaches above 35c but is commonly in the 18c-20c region - far from high enough!
- As I live in a loft bedsit, I sometimes open the windows to get some airflow through the tortoise table, but never for more than ten minutes at a time due to the inconsistent temperatures

I've included some pictures of the lighting and tortoise table set up for help.

Please, if someone could help me to understand why these bulbs aren't producing enough heat for Fran, I would be eternally grateful. Is there something wrong with the bulb? Do I need an additional light? Is it something that is unsuitable in the surrounding environment?

Thank you.

(Please ignore the spoon - it's for scooping poop)

View attachment 292870

View attachment 292871

I had the same issue last year when we got our Hermann. The pet store sold me everything i didn’t need and that didn’t work. Finally, the vet told me the only thing that was going to work was a ceramic heat lamp. I ended up buying 2-double deep domed heating lamps and put 2-75 watt ceramic bulbs in it. I live in SoCal so 1/2 of the year I don’t even use them because it’s so warm here. But those cooler months (especially at night) the ceramic heat lamps are the best. They don’t omit any light, just heat. Because of the double domed lamp i can use 1 bulb or both at the same time. Finally after 2 weeks of doing almost nothing, my Hermann was warm & cozy and became very active. Now 1 year later the we’re crazy about him and (Tom) has the whole family at his beck and call ??

 

[Maggie3fan]

You can see plexi-glass cover at one end...it has a MVB and a CHE...I cover the opening with that red towel at night....



Guess I should clean the dust off those lights and retake the photo...lol...but I'm not gonna...

 

[LasTortugasNinja]

My table is lined with a black pond tarp. absorbs and holds heat really well, and helps with humidity by protecting the table from absorbing spilt water saucers. Costs an arm and a leg, but is tear resistant too.