Amen I say!!!!!All the members we have still using open top tables, well let's just say, most are not smooth. Many end up realizing the closed chamber is probably better and end up adding some kind of cover to their tables.
Amen I say!!!!!All the members we have still using open top tables, well let's just say, most are not smooth. Many end up realizing the closed chamber is probably better and end up adding some kind of cover to their tables.
I think this forum is brilliant andIf it's wrong why wouldn't you change or improve it?
I'm really not a fan of labels like "expert" or "newbie" or whatever. I've learned long ago that it is more helpful to not view others as a whatever label, but rather as an equal. I've certainly learned things from people that are new to the hobby as much as I've gained from people like Tom who have been at it for awhile. Of all the disagreements I've had with Tom or others, things usually end up with a positive outcome. Whether my convictions grew stronger or I made changes to better husbandry.
I've known Tom for awhile now and I don't think even he would say he's an expert necessarily. At least, to the point where he would be dismissive of anyone else's success. He's willing to learn just like the rest of us. I get that it can be a challenge sometimes to prove a point in a group that has as long of a history as us on TFO, but if you have some information or experience that can help others then you should share it regardless of how it's received.
Because I truly don't feel it is wrong for my tortoises. As the title of the thread says, Tom is not the only expert; I agree. It is a mistake to only learn from one person. Chris from GST said my tortoises look "FANTASTIC" at a year of age. But they do disagree on how to do things, most here are aware of that. In fact, most TFO recommended Testudo breeders do not advocate for closed chambers of their hatchlings.
I have Testudo graeca ibera which do not require the same conditions as the species Tom raises, and which from my understanding he has more limited experience with. I do understand it is common for many here to recommend closed chambers regardless of species, but that is the part I disagree with. I believe there is more than one way to do something. I am following closely my tortoises and researching here daily to challenge my ideas, compare my progress, and be sure I feel confident they are receiving the best care. This includes reading Tom's advice to understand why he gives it, and comparing to other sources.
I would love to put them in front of Tom and ask his opinion, but that does require thick skin. I've slowly been introducing myself to posting more and considering it though. I can understand how it is intimidating to challenge Tom's ideas, which are widely accepted here. His reputation is well-earned though.
Talk about thick skin. Tom must have the thickest skin of all, because that is what it takes to stand up against an entire Industry that has been advocating improper Tortoise Care forever. It is very difficult and heartbreaking to hear about a tortoise suffering unnecessarily and it becomes frustrating knowing it can be very different if only people will be willing to change.
Sometimes we don't like being informed that we may be doing something wrong (or even that we could be doing it better). There are people, with more knowledge than us, from whom we seek advice. Some of those people are more direct than others but that doesn't mean you are being dis'd.I am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
Best comment so far... It's clear that Tom has a lot of knowledge and is not shy about spending his precious time sharing it with anyone who asks. In his effort to be factual and brief, it may seem a little off-putting to some. I'm sure we could all pile on Tom with our own list of his faults, but I doubt it would do anyone any good to cast the first stone and all that. This is the best place I've found for help with my tortoise journey, and that day that I become perfect and know everything I need to know will be that last day...cuz I'll be perfectly dead!Check out the Facebook tortoise group to see what bad advice and trolls really are. Real answers save lives
You have not been belittled. You gave advice that is potentially harmful, and I said so. That is not belittling. That is making sure poor tortoise care advice is called out and stopped before it does ever more damage. Sounds like you are far too sensitive. I welcomed you to the group and offered free knowledge that would improve your tortoise's lives. That is being helpful, not belittling. No insults were slung your way, and no insult was intended. I addressed your outdated wrong info, and offered you help. If you are so sensitive that you can't see that, then this is not the place for you, and I don't know what place could possibly be for you. We take great care here to be welcoming and not insult people. We also work hard to promote good husbandry and advance tortoise care. When people come here that are not up to speed on all the new knowledge, it can be a bit of a culture shock. I hope you can get past your self-wounded pride and imagined insult and stick around to learn some new stuff. I hope you can teach me some new stuff. Nobody's tortoises are better off if you leave and close your mind.
Sometimes we don't like being informed that we may be doing something wrong (or even that we could be doing it better). There are people, with more knowledge than us, from whom we seek advice. Some of those people are more direct than others but that doesn't mean you are being dis'd.
I have asked questions here that my first reaction was - "why isn't he kissing my arse" (just kidding)..... but you know what I mean. I prefer more sociable discourse but that doesn't mean I can't accept a direct answer. I'm sure this guy has his hands full answering questions and his first priority seems to be the well-being of the critters. I'm good with that.
Don't give in to your inner - shall I say - lack of confidence? Keep asking and listening, that's how we learn and there is always something to learn about these little monsters.
🤬 wtfI am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
🤬 wtfI am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
I thought the same thing when I came on this forum ( no offense Tom) but after a while I noticed he was right with everything he posted on this forum.I am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
Tom knows everything wtf 🤬I am sorry, but Tom is not the only expert in tortoise care. He is however the only one who belittles people for questioning him. I am done with this group.
That's the beauty of a forum, there is room for everyone.You have a great point there. I do not have the courage necessary to debate all day on the internet, and try to continually educate people the way Tom does. My anxiety would be through the roof! If people only read some of Tom's posts they may be ruffled, even decide he is arrogant or mean. If you read a few hundred of his posts I think you understand more where he is coming from. I do also believe any open-top or outdoor enclosure is shut down harshly.
I think the crucial difference here between your situation and mine is that the breeder I'm talking about is heralded here as an expert as well. Chris Leone of Garden State Tortoise is one of the most recommended breeders of Mediterranean tortoises. Second is Tortoise Supply, who also uses open top for Testudo. Not every breeder is created equally, I can agree. It is TFO who posts Chris' care guide in the Greek forum for members to learn to care for their tortoises. Oddly, it is the same forum who disputes that information repeatedly. In my post I state, I am NOT reinventing the wheel and turning down expert advice, I am deferring to the Testudo experts.
After this thread, and an accusation that my pictures are proof of failure I did decide to put my Tortoises where my mouth is, so to speak. Here is the thread of my tortoises.
Yearling Testudo graeca ibera, "Ankara" locale
I've officially outted myself as not using a closed chamber. Here are my one year old Greek babies from Garden State Tortoise. They, and I, await your judgment! I've been anxious to do this for a while now. I'm afraid to be torn down, but I also feel I may have something to offer. I realize the...tortoiseforum.org
There is more than one way to do things. There is more than one expert. Most are very passionate about their tortoises and this hobby. There should be room for everyone.
Everyone as thereThat's the beauty of a forum, there is room for everyone.
Everyone has their own brain do what’s best life is to shortThat's the beauty of a forum, there is room for everyone.
🤬 wtf
🤬 wtf
Thanks so much for adding such insightful commentary to our discussion. We just wouldn't be able to function without this level of intellect.😡Tom knows everything wtf 🤬
Amén!!You have not been belittled. You gave advice that is potentially harmful, and I said so. That is not belittling. That is making sure poor tortoise care advice is called out and stopped before it does ever more damage. Sounds like you are far too sensitive. I welcomed you to the group and offered free knowledge that would improve your tortoise's lives. That is being helpful, not belittling. No insults were slung your way, and no insult was intended. I addressed your outdated wrong info, and offered you help. If you are so sensitive that you can't see that, then this is not the place for you, and I don't know what place could possibly be for you. We take great care here to be welcoming and not insult people. We also work hard to promote good husbandry and advance tortoise care. When people come here that are not up to speed on all the new knowledge, it can be a bit of a culture shock. I hope you can get past your self-wounded pride and imagined insult and stick around to learn some new stuff. I hope you can teach me some new stuff. Nobody's tortoises are better off if you leave and close your mind.
I didn't get either. Maybe some kind of mis-interpreted humor?Thanks so much for adding such insightful commentary to our discussion. We just wouldn't be able to function without this level of intellect.😡
Some people have jealousy towards others. Yet they do little compared to the one they have the jealousy against. As much as Tom is liked by many, there are those that dislike him too.Thanks so much for adding such insightful commentary to our discussion. We just wouldn't be able to function without this level of intellect.😡