6th vertebral scute?

Meesh

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I recently got a new female juvenile Hermann’s tortoise. I noticed she has 6 vertebral scutes. She seems good but in terms of growing can she lead a normal healthy turtle life?
Also she was sold to me as an Eastern but that "keyhole" shape in the 5th vertebral scute suggests she's a western.. ? 20211020_161207.jpg
 

OkAdiza

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Looks like a very pretty Eastern to me. I’m not an expert, but it doesn’t look like the defined key holes that Westerns have. Either way, it’s a beautiful tortoise.
 

zovick

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I recently got a new female juvenile Hermann’s tortoise. I noticed she has 6 vertebral scutes. She seems good but in terms of growing can she lead a normal healthy turtle life?
Also she was sold to me as an Eastern but that "keyhole" shape in the 5th vertebral scute suggests she's a western.. ? View attachment 334869
Did you see the tortoise before you bought it? Did you buy it online or in person? If online, did the seller inform you of the 6th vertebral scute?

I never sold anyone a tortoise with abnormal scutes sight unseen without telling them in advance. Some people like them, others abhor them. Any responsible seller should inform a buyer that the tortoise he/she is buying has abnormal scutes in addition to providing photos so that the buyer knows what they are getting without being surprised upon receiving the animal.

I have noticed a number of sellers post photos of animals with abnormal scutes, but say nothing about the condition in the ad text, which leaves the buyer in the position of having to really examine the photos extremely closely in order not to be deceived. I consider this practice of tricking unwary buyers into buying misshapen animals without their informed consent to be tantamount to lying by omission.
 

Meesh

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Did you see the tortoise before you bought it? Did you buy it online or in person? If online, did the seller inform you of the 6th vertebral scute?

I never sold anyone a tortoise with abnormal scutes sight unseen without telling them in advance. Some people like them, others abhor them. Any responsible seller should inform a buyer that the tortoise he/she is buying has abnormal scutes in addition to providing photos so that the buyer knows what they are getting without being surprised upon receiving the animal.

I have noticed a number of sellers post photos of animals with abnormal scutes, but say nothing about the condition in the ad text, which leaves the buyer in the position of having to really examine the photos extremely closely in order not to be deceived. I consider this practice of tricking unwary buyers into buying misshapen animals without their informed consent to be tantamount to lying by omission.
No, I got her at petco.. she was super dusty when I got her so I didn't notice it until after I soaked her and cleaned her up. But I don't mind it, just makes her a little more unique lol I was just concerned about it maybe causing problems for her as she grows..
She looks like my other easterns but they say westerns have that same keyhole shape on the fifth vertebral scute just like she does. Could be a coincidence I still think she's eastern its just making me wonder. If she is western I don't want to keep her with the other easterns & mix breed the two
 

Meesh

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Looks like a very pretty Eastern to me. I’m not an expert, but it doesn’t look like the defined key holes that Westerns have. Either way, it’s a beautiful tortoise.
Thanks! I think she's eastern too. It's just hard to tell bc the scute is deformed but she does look like my other easterns.. Pic #1 is "Tank" a baby male eastern hermann.. Pic #2 is "Herman" a male juvenile eastern.. Pic #3 is "shelly" a female juvenile eastern hermann.
 

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Tom

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The golden cheek spot and the plastron pattern is more of an indicator than the keyhole scute pattern which is highly variable within the species. It is highly unlikely that a western would end up at Petco.
 

Meesh

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The golden cheek spot and the plastron pattern is more of an indicator than the keyhole scute pattern which is highly variable within the species. It is highly unlikely that a western would end up at Petco
I've only seen them there once or twice but the typical species they carry around my area is the eastern hermann, Red footed, & Russian.
I think she's eastern too I'd just like to be 100% sure seeing as how she's housed with other easterns & would not want cross breeding going on.
The golden cheek spot and the plastron pattern is more of an indicator than the keyhole scute pattern which is highly variable within the species. It is highly unlikely that a western would end up at Petco.
 

zovick

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No, I got her at petco.. she was super dusty when I got her so I didn't notice it until after I soaked her and cleaned her up. But I don't mind it, just makes her a little more unique lol I was just concerned about it maybe causing problems for her as she grows..
She looks like my other easterns but they say westerns have that same keyhole shape on the fifth vertebral scute just like she does. Could be a coincidence I still think she's eastern its just making me wonder. If she is western I don't want to keep her with the other easterns & mix breed the two
I agree with what Tom said. Namely, it is highly unlikely that a Western Hermann's Tortoise would be sold by Petco. They are more costly than the Easterns and the wholesalers from whom Petco buys would probably not pay extra money for a tortoise which looks just like one they could get more cheaply, assuming they were even made available to such wholesalers (which is also unlikely).
 

TeamZissou

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If anything, it could be a hybrid between a Dalmatian and Eastern, which is even harder to tell since their ranges have a lot of overlap. I believe Dalmatian isn't even considered a legit subspecies anymore by science and has been grouped in with Eastern.

That said, it looks like an Eastern to me based on the one available photo.
 

Meesh

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I agree with what Tom said. Namely, it is highly unlikely that a Western Hermann's Tortoise would be sold by Petco. They are more costly than the Easterns and the wholesalers from whom Petco buys would probably not pay extra money for a tortoise which looks just like one they could get more cheaply, assuming they were even made available to such wholesalers (which is also unlikely).
I've only seen them there once or twice. Not much difference in price the easterns are 250.00 & the Westerns are 275.00 .. the most common breeds seen there are eastern hermanns sold at 250, red footed sold at 200, & russians sold at 175.. I haven't seen any Westerns there for a few years now though.
 

zovick

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I've only seen them there once or twice. Not much difference in price the easterns are 250.00 & the Westerns are 275.00 .. the most common breeds seen there are eastern hermanns sold at 250, red footed sold at 200, & russians sold at 175.. I haven't seen any Westerns there for a few years now though.
Yes, your post confirms my point. The less costly tortoises are sold more frequently by places like Petco and Petsmart. Most people wanting Western Hermann's would buy them from breeders rather than pet stores. They are also harder to import than the Easterns, so would show up less frequently.

Another couple questions for you. Which Brunswick is your home? GA, ME, or where?

How sure are you the ones you saw in Petco years back were Western Hermann's? If you are having trouble telling which type the one you just bought is, are you sure those others weren't Easterns? Guess I still have a tough time believing they ever had any Western Hermann's for sale. Not impossible, I suppose, just unusual. I've never seen anything but Eastern Hermann's in the Petcos and Petsmarts I have visited.
 

Meesh

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Yes, your post confirms my point. The less costly tortoises are sold more frequently by places like Petco and Petsmart. Most people wanting Western Hermann's would buy them from breeders rather than pet stores. They are also harder to import than the Easterns, so would show up less frequently.

Another couple questions for you. Which Brunswick is your home? GA, ME, or where?

How sure are you the ones you saw in Petco years back were Western Hermann's? If you are having trouble telling which type the one you just bought is, are you sure those others weren't Easterns? Guess I still have a tough time believing they ever had any Western Hermann's for sale. Not impossible, I suppose, just unusual. I've never seen anything but Eastern Hermann's in the Petcos and Petsmarts I have visited.
The animals they have & the animals they're allowed to sell varies state - state bc of different state laws.. I identified them not only from the sign on the enclosure but they are alot brighter than the easterns. Very yellow & their black marks are darker. I'm actually on my way to there now to get some tort diet and some new substrate if you'd like to chat with an associate. Not sure why im having to "defend" this lol..
 

zovick

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The animals they have & the animals they're allowed to sell varies state - state bc of different state laws.. I identified them not only from the sign on the enclosure but they are alot brighter than the easterns. Very yellow & their black marks are darker. I'm actually on my way to there now to get some tort diet and some new substrate if you'd like to chat with an associate. Not sure why im having to "defend" this lol..
Not trying to offend you, just trying to understand all the facts.

What state are you in? Just curious.
 
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