Are Leopard Tortoises Shy?

[Jacqui]

Man, did ya here the latest rumor? Mod Jacqui is mean. mean people rule!

First that is not rumor, it's fact I am mean. Next that is off topic. Let's stay on topic, okay? Also remember debate the topic, not the quality or personality of each other.

 

[John]

Man, did ya here the latest rumor? Mod Jacqui is mean. mean people rule!

First that is not rumor, it's fact I am mean. Next that is off topic. Let's stay on topic, okay? Also remember debate the topic, not the quality or personality of each other.

What was the topic?

 

[Jacqui]

I do believe the topic is... are leopards shy?

 

[onarock]

Guess Ill throw in my .02 cents. Are leopard tortoises shy? Some of them and some of them not. Its been my experience that leopard tortoises are not shy, not to say that there are not shy ones. Dont know if an earlier post of mine still exsists on this thread, but I'll say it again. Leopard tortoises have been imported into this country for decades. What we know as gpp were imported over 20 years ago. Most of, if not all of the gpp most here see are captive bred animals. Gpb on the other hand were imported into this country untill 2000. Its my opinion that alot of the shy gpb are in fact wild caught animals. There is a huge difference between the behavior of a wild caught animal and a captive bred animal. The OP suggested that some of these large tortoises that people consider gpb might be hybrids. This is not true. Leopards were imported from all over Africa where they range. From many different countrys. How do I know? I used to go to Cal Zoo and LA reptile and dig through crates of them in the late 80's early 90's. Much like debunking the myth of the Ethiopian/Somalian leopards, let me debunk this. If you read natural history papers written by people in the field that have spent their lives studying tortoises you will know that gpb come in all shapes and sizes. Or, we can speculate. What if the giant Somali babcocki are ranging into other gpb clades territory and breeding with them? And, some that were imported are actually pure gpb, but they get their size from the Somali's. There is just too many variables when it comes to leopards. This can be spun and spun all day long. They are the largest ranging sub-saharan tortoise in Africa, which last time I checked, was a pretty big place. This is why, to me, all this generalization stuff is Madness. I have some large gpb are they 100% babcocki? Im almost sure of it, could I be wrong? Yes. Are the ones we call gpp here in the states 100% gpp that some claim. Who knows. Their guess is as good as mine. Just because the import papers say geochelone pardalis, doesnt mean they are 100% gpp. What is certain is that this group of leopards was imported from this country of origin, and if they are really good, might also list collecting data, but its still just a guess. Both sub.sp share the same range.

 

[Neal]

Guess Ill throw in my .02 cents. Are leopard tortoises shy? Some of them and some of them not. Its been my experience that leopard tortoises are not shy, not to say that there are not shy ones. Dont know if an earlier post of mine still exsists on this thread, but I'll say it again. Leopard tortoises have been imported into this country for decades. What we know as gpp were imported over 20 years ago. Most of, if not all of the gpp most here see are captive bred animals. Gpb on the other hand were imported into this country untill 2000. Its my opinion that alot of the shy gpb are in fact wild caught animals. There is a huge difference between the behavior of a wild caught animal and a captive bred animal. The OP suggested that some of these large tortoises that people consider gpb might be hybrids. This is not true. Leopards were imported from all over Africa where they range. From many different countrys. How do I know? I used to go to Cal Zoo and LA reptile and dig through crates of them in the late 80's early 90's. Much like debunking the myth of the Ethiopian/Somalian leopards, let me debunk this. If you read natural history papers written by people in the field that have spent their lives studying tortoises you will know that gpb come in all shapes and sizes. Or, we can speculate. What if the giant Somali babcocki are ranging into other gpb clades territory and breeding with them? And, some that were imported are actually pure gpb, but they get their size from the Somali's. There is just too many variables when it comes to leopards. This can be spun and spun all day long. They are the largest ranging sub-saharan tortoise in Africa, which last time I checked, was a pretty big place. This is why, to me, all this generalization stuff is Madness. I have some large gpb are they 100% babcocki? Im almost sure of it, could I be wrong? Yes. Are the ones we call gpp here in the states 100% gpp that some claim. Who knows. Their guess is as good as mine. Just because the import papers say geochelone pardalis, doesnt mean they are 100% gpp. What is certain is that this group of leopards was imported from this country of origin, and if they are really good, might also list collecting data, but its still just a guess. Both sub.sp share the same range.

Thank You.

I had never considered the CB vs WC aspect of this argument. Having seen the same thing in box turtles, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Az tortoise compound]

Guess Ill throw in my .02 cents. Are leopard tortoises shy? Some of them and some of them not. Its been my experience that leopard tortoises are not shy, not to say that there are not shy ones. Dont know if an earlier post of mine still exsists on this thread, but I'll say it again. Leopard tortoises have been imported into this country for decades. What we know as gpp were imported over 20 years ago. Most of, if not all of the gpp most here see are captive bred animals. Gpb on the other hand were imported into this country untill 2000. Its my opinion that alot of the shy gpb are in fact wild caught animals. There is a huge difference between the behavior of a wild caught animal and a captive bred animal. The OP suggested that some of these large tortoises that people consider gpb might be hybrids. This is not true. Leopards were imported from all over Africa where they range. From many different countrys. How do I know? I used to go to Cal Zoo and LA reptile and dig through crates of them in the late 80's early 90's. Much like debunking the myth of the Ethiopian/Somalian leopards, let me debunk this. If you read natural history papers written by people in the field that have spent their lives studying tortoises you will know that gpb come in all shapes and sizes. Or, we can speculate. What if the giant Somali babcocki are ranging into other gpb clades territory and breeding with them? And, some that were imported are actually pure gpb, but they get their size from the Somali's. There is just too many variables when it comes to leopards. This can be spun and spun all day long. They are the largest ranging sub-saharan tortoise in Africa, which last time I checked, was a pretty big place. This is why, to me, all this generalization stuff is Madness. I have some large gpb are they 100% babcocki? Im almost sure of it, could I be wrong? Yes. Are the ones we call gpp here in the states 100% gpp that some claim. Who knows. Their guess is as good as mine. Just because the import papers say geochelone pardalis, doesnt mean they are 100% gpp. What is certain is that this group of leopards was imported from this country of origin, and if they are really good, might also list collecting data, but its still just a guess. Both sub.sp share the same range.

+1 Paul!
This is the most intelligent post I have read on this forum in regards to the shyness of Leopards.

 

[Mao Senpai]

Guess Ill throw in my .02 cents. Are leopard tortoises shy? Some of them and some of them not. Its been my experience that leopard tortoises are not shy, not to say that there are not shy ones. Dont know if an earlier post of mine still exsists on this thread, but I'll say it again. Leopard tortoises have been imported into this country for decades. What we know as gpp were imported over 20 years ago. Most of, if not all of the gpp most here see are captive bred animals. Gpb on the other hand were imported into this country untill 2000. Its my opinion that alot of the shy gpb are in fact wild caught animals. There is a huge difference between the behavior of a wild caught animal and a captive bred animal. The OP suggested that some of these large tortoises that people consider gpb might be hybrids. This is not true. Leopards were imported from all over Africa where they range. From many different countrys. How do I know? I used to go to Cal Zoo and LA reptile and dig through crates of them in the late 80's early 90's. Much like debunking the myth of the Ethiopian/Somalian leopards, let me debunk this. If you read natural history papers written by people in the field that have spent their lives studying tortoises you will know that gpb come in all shapes and sizes. Or, we can speculate. What if the giant Somali babcocki are ranging into other gpb clades territory and breeding with them? And, some that were imported are actually pure gpb, but they get their size from the Somali's. There is just too many variables when it comes to leopards. This can be spun and spun all day long. They are the largest ranging sub-saharan tortoise in Africa, which last time I checked, was a pretty big place. This is why, to me, all this generalization stuff is Madness. I have some large gpb are they 100% babcocki? Im almost sure of it, could I be wrong? Yes. Are the ones we call gpp here in the states 100% gpp that some claim. Who knows. Their guess is as good as mine. Just because the import papers say geochelone pardalis, doesnt mean they are 100% gpp. What is certain is that this group of leopards was imported from this country of origin, and if they are really good, might also list collecting data, but its still just a guess. Both sub.sp share the same range.

This made a lot of sense.

 

[TylerStewart]

I think it depends what the "standard" is that we're comparing to. I think you'd be saddened if you expected your leopard(s) to be as "in your face" as sulcatas or Russians are, but there are certainly species that are more shy (and maybe less commonly kept). I have a group of about 7-8 babcocki leopards that you can't keep off your feet if you're in their cage. My wife was complaining to me the other day about them nipping at her toenails constantly as she was out there wandering around. I have another group of babcocki that is not like that, but not really shy; they kinda just ignore me. They don't really tuck in, but they don't come to me either. My pardalis leopards are the same way, they kinda just ignore me. The biggest difference is that the group that is super-friendly has been kept together as a group for about a decade. They have established their ranks and gotten comfortable with each other, and I think this contributes a lot to it. The other groups are getting animals added and taken away until I'm happy with the group. I think this long term steady housing contributes a lot to their comfort level.

 

[Tom]

I'm glad I started this thread. Lots of good info and I'm gaining perspective on where everyone is coming from. I finally got all eight responses from the eight people I asked. Some of them wish to remain anonymous, but I'll give you their qualifications in a vague way. Each of these people were given the simple question. "Are leopard tortoises shy?"

1. Richard Fife. His qualifications speak for themselves. The man knows leopards as well as anyone does. His answer surprised me and gave me some insight too. Tyler just sort of touched on it too in his post, but more on that later.
Richard's response: "Leopard tortoises are not as active and curious as sulcatas but if they have interaction with their owner they become very friendly."

2. A wholesaler friend. This is the person who ships all my babies for me. This person's been involved in reptiles their whole life and I've known them as a wholesaler for around ten years now, dating back to another wholesale company. I honesty don't know if this person even has any tortoises right now, but this person has got all sorts of other neat critters.
His response: "More shy than a sulcatta but not really shy."

3. This man has been a friend and "Reptile Mentor" to me for over 15 years. He ran the largest import/wholesale company on the West Coast for several decades, until he changed professions. He has some amazing stories. To this day he still maintains one of the most comprehensive and best reptile collections of anyone I know. His collection includes properly permitted venomous snakes, crocodilians and yes, Leopard tortoises too. I have the highest regard and respect for this man.
His response: "Well, yes they generally are, but not the South Africans. Those ones are more like sulcatas." Funny, I say almost this exact same thing. I probably learned this phraseology from him and have just parroted it for all this time.

4. A friend of mine. He's been keeping tortoises since the 80's. He and another friend started a huge breeding operation back in the mid 90's. It was mostly leopards, but also some sulcatas and other species in smaller amounts. They had 100's of adult tortoises. Some were CB, some were WC. He was the breeder of my adult female sulcata, Deloris.
His response: "Oh yeah. Very shy. Except for those pardalis pardalis. Those things are the way to go. If you want to do leopards you should try to get some of those." When I told him I had 14, he asked me if I got them from his friend "So and so". When I said "yep.", he said, "you're golden then, hang on to those."

5. Friend 2. Keeper and breeder of leopards on a smaller scale. Only a few animals for a few years. Pretty sure they were all CB.
Response: "... not the most gregarious species out there."

6. Carl May. I have the highest regard and respect for Carl. He was keeping and breeding tortoises before I was born. I've had several email conversations with him since joining TFO, and find him to be very likable and knowledgeable. He gave me permission to directly quote him here on the forum.
Carl's Response: "Babcocki are shy and have virtually NO personality as far as I have experienced. But the south African pardalis pardalis are fabulously interesting and are not shy at all. **** Bartlett's p. pardalis are incredibly neat animals! Go ahead, quote me."

7. Friend 3. This person has many years of experience keeping and breeding both subspecies of leopards and sulcatas. There are around two dozen torts in this person's collection, not counting babies which are present in abundance.
Response: "Well to answer as a yes or no question, I would say that yes, Leopard tortoises are a shy species." This person further described that they are not ALL shy and that their environment and handling also plays a part. This person also volunteered that pps have totally different personalities and are "hands down not shy in comparison to pbs." The personality of pps was compared to that of sulcatas. Here is a direct copy and paste quote of my entire email to this person: "In general, would you consider leopard tortoises to be a shy species?" That was it. There were no others words or sentences in my email.

8. The breeder of MY (OUR) Gpp. This person has multiple pens with groups of each subspecies, literally side by side, divided by his drive way. I don't know what year this person started with leopards, but he was in full swing by 1991 when he bought his founding pp stock as direct imports. He's produced dozens or hundreds of offspring, every year, from both subspecies since that time. He has also kept many of his own hatchlings and raised them up to be breeders. His pp, both the original imports and their CB adult offspring all behave very sulcata like. His pb all behave in the typical way I have usually seen them. If any of you know this man's name PLEASE keep it to yourself. He wishes to remain anonymous and wants NO public attention. No matter how much someone may dislike me, this man deserves to keep his privacy.
His response: "Yes. I would say Babcocki are quite shy." That was it. He's a man of few words and not real big on email chat.

I don't expect this to end all debate on the subject, but since these are some of the people that I know and talk torts with, it should shed some insight on why my opinion of leopards is what it is.

Now about what Tyler and Mr. Fife said: I have known sulcatas and leopards for the same amount of time. In 1991 a man, whose name I never even knew, walked into the Southern CA pet shop where I worked with a tub of leopard and sulcata hatchlings. Around a dozen of each. We were all awestruck. He was asking $100 for the sulcatas and $150 for the leopards. We bought several. I'm sure that I had heard of them prior to this, and I knew there were lots of different tortoise species "out there". But this was THE day that I "discovered" Leopards and sulcatas. Prior to this I mostly dealt with CDTs and box turtles, which at my tender young age, I felt I knew A LOT about since I had had ONE since I was 7. So for me, from day one, I have had leopards and sulcatas at the same time, side by side. Its NO WONDER I find Leopards shy. My whole life, I've been comparing them to sulcatas. Not necessarily intentionally, but subconsciously. So NOW, finally, it occurs to me why some of us are so polarized on this subject. We all have a different frame of reference and "shy" can mean different things to different people. Neal, who I respect greatly, has been one of the strongest objectors to my "shy Leopard" opinions. It occurs to me that he's mostly kept Leopards. He once related to me that he did have a single sulcata for a while and it was much less outgoing than his Leopards. Neal, please correct any of this that I have remembered incorrectly. It occurs to me then, that if someone has not kept a lot of Russians or sulcatas AND Leopards at the same time, the Leopards, might be seen in a whole different light. I know that Mick, who I also respect greatly, has both species, so this possible explanation doesn't cover ALL situations.

Please share your thoughts.

 

[onarock]

I don't expect this to end all debate on the subject, but since these are some of the people that I know and talk torts with, it should shed some insight on why my opinion of leopards is what it is.

Please share your thoughts.

I know my thoughts arent wanted here, but heck, I'll share them anyway.

Your above copied quote sums it all up for me...You base your opinion on what other people say. All this stuff we have been going back and forth on for months now, about experience and first hand knowledge. I guess all this time I have been aguing with 5-8 unknown people and not really you.
Honestly Tom, I apologize for the last 3-4 months of bickering.

 

[Neal]

We all have a different frame of reference and "shy" can mean different things to different people.

This is why when someone asks about tortoise personality I will usually ask what they are looking for in tortoise personality. I have done this a lot, actually.

My experience with sulcatas is certainly not comparable to my experience with leopards. As far as the number of sulcatas I have owned, it was a whopping two. A lot of my experience comes from my uncle in Vegas that had a group of about 8 or so, (also had a pair of leopards and a few desert tortoises). I've also had friends and other relatives with groups and individuals. So, I think I have enough experience to get a good idea of what they are like, and I have to say the same thing about them as I do with leopards, each tortoise is unique and generalities of them being not shy might be misleading.

They certainly behave differently, that I don't think is questionable. The sulcatas I've seen behave more like a puppy, whereas leopards I have seen are a little more like a mature dog. I guess with respect to these personality questions that come up, the person needs to know what they are looking for in tortoise personality and then us with our expereinces of different types can chime in and recomend the type that would work better for them.

As far as GPP having more of a personality than GPB, I just don't see it. We have relatively the same amount of hands on time with our seperate large groups. For the most part they came from the same adults. The pens I have for both types are side by side, and I look in there and I see the same thing all the time. The same ones of both types are hanging out in the corner, and the same ones are out patrolling the pen. I'm sure if you were to come over to my house, you would see differences. If Richard or any of the others you mentioned above came over, they would see something different then the two of us.

I've said it earlier that I just don't think personality in tortoises is cut and dry, as in they have it or they don't. It's complex and people see things differently. So when I saw your posts about them being shy and like rocks, I think in terms of what has been described above and in yours and Tyler's posts, it might be misleading...maybe misleading isn't the right word, but you get what I mean right?

 

[Tom]

I don't expect this to end all debate on the subject, but since these are some of the people that I know and talk torts with, it should shed some insight on why my opinion of leopards is what it is.

Please share your thoughts.

I know my thoughts arent wanted here, but heck, I'll share them anyway.

Your above copied quote sums it all up for me...You base your opinion on what other people say. All this stuff we have been going back and forth on for months now, about experience and first hand knowledge. I guess all this time I have been aguing with 5-8 unknown people and not really you.
Honestly Tom, I apologize for the last 3-4 months of bickering.

Awe Paul. Always kiddin' around. I know you mean well and I accept your apology.

---

I get it Neal. Loud and clear. I think you and I have always agreed more than disagreed, but we just use different words and ways of describing things. What I mean is, I tend to generalize a lot where you like to be more specific and note the exceptions. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with either technique....... generally speaking.

 

[Yvonne G]

I think we all seem to be missing the point. You can't lump all species of tortoises together any more than you can lump different dog breeds together. Are all pit bulls aggressive? Are all thoroughbred horses fast runners? Are all housewives lazy?

 

[Tom]

I think we all seem to be missing the point. You can't lump all species of tortoises together any more than you can lump different dog breeds together. Are all pit bulls aggressive? Are all thoroughbred horses fast runners? Are all housewives lazy?

This relates directly to my comments to Neal. I would say that most true pitbulls ARE dog aggressive. Now everyone on this forum should know that I've seen tons of them that weren't. I like to avoid "all or none" and "always or never" statements. The only "always" that I like to use is there is ALWAYS an exception.

This is exactly what I was saying in the first few sentences of post #1. I don't think, and never meant to imply, that ALL leopards are shy. But still, the majority of the ones that I have experienced appear shy to my way of perceiving things.

 

[Neal]

I think we all seem to be missing the point. You can't lump all species of tortoises together any more than you can lump different dog breeds together. Are all pit bulls aggressive? Are all thoroughbred horses fast runners? Are all housewives lazy?

I get that point Yvonne. That's why I disagree that a non-shy leopard tortoise is the exception to the species. Exception to one's opinion yes, but not exception to the species. I don't mean to say the oposite that a non-shy leopard is the standard either, only that it's a case by case basis. I think the opinions that have been shared here illustrate that.

 

[dav3]

i think its 50-50 tbh i own 2 leos and my male squirtle is shy but on the other hand my female Ivy is probly the most outgoing tort to reach scotland

 

[ChiKat]

So for me, from day one, I have had leopards and sulcatas at the same time, side by side. Its NO WONDER I find Leopards shy. My whole life, I've been comparing them to sulcatas. Not necessarily intentionally, but subconsciously. So NOW, finally, it occurs to me why some of us are so polarized on this subject. We all have a different frame of reference and "shy" can mean different things to different people.

So basically what I said back on page 1

People might not consider their Leopards to be shy, but when compared to crazy, attention-seeking Sulcatas, Leopards might seem more reserved.

But what do I know, I have "little or no leopard experience" and I should not have chimed in.

I too would hope someone with little or no leopard experience would not chime in here, but I think some of that is unavoidable on a public forum.

(I hope you know I'm saying this partly in jest )

 

[Tom]

When you are right you are right, Katie.

...and you were right.

 

[Fernando]

Geez... Tom you could have saved us all these posts and listened to Katie!!!

 

[Tom]

Hey! I never said I wasn't hard headed!

Besides that, look at all the fun we would have missed out on.