Are tortoises smart enough to avoid poisonous plants? I have tons on wedelia around the yard and am worried that if he escapes, he might eat it.
Are Tortoises smart enough.....
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I certainly hope so I have tons of oxalis as well as clovers hopefully mine doesn't eat the oxalis and goes for the clovers instead lol
some will try anything, others won't if they aren't interested.
They survive in the wild without someone pulling up the toxic stuff!
Joe has free range of my garden and frankly I have better things to do with my time than remove everything that could possibly harm him.
He avoids the bad stuff... or if he has taken a nibble, he stopped at that. Given Joe's age, I guess my attitude hasn't done too much harm!
Joe has free range of my garden and frankly I have better things to do with my time than remove everything that could possibly harm him.
He avoids the bad stuff... or if he has taken a nibble, he stopped at that. Given Joe's age, I guess my attitude hasn't done too much harm!
Like was said some do, most in fact, know what to avoid. You do hear of a few which apparently were not equipped with the instinct or knowledge of plants not to eat, but they may also be plants not native to that species natural range. The bigger the tortoise is, the more "bad" plants it could eat without showing any thing negative happening.
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What do you guys feed your torts? I'm a beginner. So far I've fed her grass carrots and green beans.... give me some ideas! Thanks
So far I've fed her grass carrots and green beans.... give me some ideas! Thanks
luvmysulcata said:What do you guys feed your torts? I'm a beginner.
I would skip the green beans and use carrots as a treat only. When my sulcata was tiny I feed him endive, turnip, mustard, kale, radicchio, local grasses, weeds, and opuntia cactus. Most of this I found in the produce section of the local grocery. After he started spending most of his time outside I bought seeds online and planted a grazing area for him.
There is a section on Tortoise diet that has helpful hints for you.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Forum-Tortoise-Diet-and-Food#axzz1p3zpmeKy
Tortoises and dangerous wild plants is an interesting topic. There are a lot of aspects of it that make it really hard to give an absolute yes/no answer to.
1. Tortoises are resistant to a lot of toxins. Most lists of 'dangerous plants' are things that affect humans, livestock, and common pets, but a lot of things on the lists don't seem to bother reptiles or tortoises. If you look in books like Dr. Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" you only see a few toxic plants listed- oak, tobacco, lily, nightshade, and a few others (I don't have the book here to check.)
One example of this is oxylic acid, which is toxic to humans and other animals at the right concentration. This is what makes things like rhubarb leaves toxic. Many species of wild tortoises, however, are known to freely eat things so high in oxylic acid that it would kill a person. (This does not mean oxalates are good for tortoises, just that they are not as big a deal as some sources make them sound.)
2. Many species of tortoise live in places where there is a fairly limited number of plants around them and they seem to be able to identify and avoid the bad ones. Some species, like the 'forest tortoises' seem more willing to 'sample' foods to see if they are OK. This makes sense since they may be over a thousand species in their range- many that they will only see once or twice in their lives.
3. In either case, the dangerous plants at your house are definitely not the same as the ones they either grew up with or somehow know to avoid. Some of these plants will have something that signals the tortoise that it is not safe to eat- a scent, a texture, etc. but not all of them.
4. There are lots of reports of people keeping tortoises in outdoor habitats with known dangerous plants, even plants known risky to tortoises, like oak and lilies- but in the vast majority of cases, the tortoises just ignore these plants.
5. I cannot seem to find much on wedelia toxicity- in fact, at least one form of wedelia is used as a folk medicine. This may be a non-issue.
You would get a lot better results for this if you...
a. Told us the species involved (which I assume is a sulcata by your name, etc., but we've been surprised before.)
b. Posted this in a better forum- like Diet or Sulcatas.
1. Tortoises are resistant to a lot of toxins. Most lists of 'dangerous plants' are things that affect humans, livestock, and common pets, but a lot of things on the lists don't seem to bother reptiles or tortoises. If you look in books like Dr. Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" you only see a few toxic plants listed- oak, tobacco, lily, nightshade, and a few others (I don't have the book here to check.)
One example of this is oxylic acid, which is toxic to humans and other animals at the right concentration. This is what makes things like rhubarb leaves toxic. Many species of wild tortoises, however, are known to freely eat things so high in oxylic acid that it would kill a person. (This does not mean oxalates are good for tortoises, just that they are not as big a deal as some sources make them sound.)
2. Many species of tortoise live in places where there is a fairly limited number of plants around them and they seem to be able to identify and avoid the bad ones. Some species, like the 'forest tortoises' seem more willing to 'sample' foods to see if they are OK. This makes sense since they may be over a thousand species in their range- many that they will only see once or twice in their lives.
3. In either case, the dangerous plants at your house are definitely not the same as the ones they either grew up with or somehow know to avoid. Some of these plants will have something that signals the tortoise that it is not safe to eat- a scent, a texture, etc. but not all of them.
4. There are lots of reports of people keeping tortoises in outdoor habitats with known dangerous plants, even plants known risky to tortoises, like oak and lilies- but in the vast majority of cases, the tortoises just ignore these plants.
5. I cannot seem to find much on wedelia toxicity- in fact, at least one form of wedelia is used as a folk medicine. This may be a non-issue.
luvmysulcata said:What do you guys feed your torts? I'm a beginner.
You would get a lot better results for this if you...
a. Told us the species involved (which I assume is a sulcata by your name, etc., but we've been surprised before.)
b. Posted this in a better forum- like Diet or Sulcatas.
Good posts. The instinctive ability of an animal to eat good items and avoid bad ones is known as "nutritional wisdom," and tortoises certainly seem to have it. They can eat innocuous or nutritious plants, tolerate slightly more toxic plants, and avoid dangerous ones. When I take my tortoises out, I never worry that they're going to eat plants that could poison them, because they just seem to know, probably by smell.
The only exception to this is human litter or pollution. If a tortoise encounters an artificial object like a piece of plastic, he may not realize that such a thing could get lodged in his gut, because he has no evolutionary history with it. So, he may eat it, and it might make him sick. Also, tortoises have no evolutionary history with pesticides and herbicides, and may not be able to tell by smell alone that they are bad for them. So, take care not to let your tortoise forage where poisonous chemical have been applied, because the tortoise might not know any better and eat plants soaked in them, which can lead to illness.
Having said all this, there are probably a few rules of thumb a person could follow when it comes to deciding which plants to grow in the backyard.
1) All tortoises eat leafy greens, but not all eat fruits, grasses, or invertebrates. Know which species you have, and what else it needs besides leafy greens to stay healthy. By the same token, if it shouldn't be eating a lot of fruit, don't give it unlimited access to fruiting plants.
2) The leafy greens that tortoises do eat are usually forbs (herbs), i.e. annual weeds. These plants do not have a thick, waxy cuticle or a lot of wood in their tissues. A tortoise probably wouldn't want to eat a perennial plant, but if it did, it might not feel well because of all the extra wax, wood, and even toxins in their tissues. When in doubt, I would allow my tortoises to access annuals, but not perennials.
3) Know where your tortoise is from, because odds are that if there are toxic plants it might eat, they would be from another part of the world. Again, tortoises do seem to have considerable nutritional wisdom, but if they're going to make a mistake, it's probably going to be with an evolutionarily novel plant, and not one that they have a long evolutionary history with.
I don't worry about which plants my tortoises can or can't eat, because they already seem to know instinctively better than I do. As I said, I worry about pesticides, not natural toxins, because the tortoises might not be aware of them. However, if I were worried about it, I would probably follow the three rules of thumb above.
The only exception to this is human litter or pollution. If a tortoise encounters an artificial object like a piece of plastic, he may not realize that such a thing could get lodged in his gut, because he has no evolutionary history with it. So, he may eat it, and it might make him sick. Also, tortoises have no evolutionary history with pesticides and herbicides, and may not be able to tell by smell alone that they are bad for them. So, take care not to let your tortoise forage where poisonous chemical have been applied, because the tortoise might not know any better and eat plants soaked in them, which can lead to illness.
Having said all this, there are probably a few rules of thumb a person could follow when it comes to deciding which plants to grow in the backyard.
1) All tortoises eat leafy greens, but not all eat fruits, grasses, or invertebrates. Know which species you have, and what else it needs besides leafy greens to stay healthy. By the same token, if it shouldn't be eating a lot of fruit, don't give it unlimited access to fruiting plants.
2) The leafy greens that tortoises do eat are usually forbs (herbs), i.e. annual weeds. These plants do not have a thick, waxy cuticle or a lot of wood in their tissues. A tortoise probably wouldn't want to eat a perennial plant, but if it did, it might not feel well because of all the extra wax, wood, and even toxins in their tissues. When in doubt, I would allow my tortoises to access annuals, but not perennials.
3) Know where your tortoise is from, because odds are that if there are toxic plants it might eat, they would be from another part of the world. Again, tortoises do seem to have considerable nutritional wisdom, but if they're going to make a mistake, it's probably going to be with an evolutionarily novel plant, and not one that they have a long evolutionary history with.
I don't worry about which plants my tortoises can or can't eat, because they already seem to know instinctively better than I do. As I said, I worry about pesticides, not natural toxins, because the tortoises might not be aware of them. However, if I were worried about it, I would probably follow the three rules of thumb above.
luvmysulcata said:What do you guys feed your torts? I'm a beginner.
Hi luvmysulcata: It would be best if you were to start a new thread for your question. This thread is dedicated to helping decide if tortoises are smart enough to not eat something that's not good for them.
I kinda always figured it was like rats. Rats will habitually take a little nibble of something to see if it will affect their system. If it does, they know to avoid it in the future. That's why rat poison is sometimes not effective for eradicating rats. Tortoises probably do the same thing, more or less; if they come across an unfamiliar plant, they'll likely don't gorge themselves on it.
No they are not always smart enough. Captivity makes them do things that the wild ones have the sense not to do. Even with that fact, wild sulcatas are like garbage disposals and eat everything, including dead animals.
... and Dana, my tortoises will all happily eat the oxalis right along with the clover.
... and Dana, my tortoises will all happily eat the oxalis right along with the clover.
Animals sometimes use plants off the no-no list to clean out their parasites.
emysemys said:
I have read about this for some Testudo species in the wild. Have you seen studies done for other species?
One of the vets I use has a Facebook fan page and shares a lot of interesting experiences he has. No too long ago he shared a case where a leopard tortoise had eaten something...I forgot..but poisonous. Spent a few days in the ICU, and eventually became better, but his point was to be mindful of what we have growing in our yards because tortoises can't always distinguish between the good stuff and the bad stuff.
Neal said:
I know you hear about these kinds of cases every so often and I am glad you reminded us of that. I think a major problem we have is just a lack of knowledge, knowledge that can only be gained by putting out tortoises into danger. To know just what is actually harmful to a tortoise, we would have to do studies on which species is having problems with which plant, how much can they eat before problems arise, and what size ratio to the food are we talking, even what part of the plant or season it is.
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