"ASH" IN GRASSLAND TORTOISE PELLETS?

[sibi]

I have experienced an alarming increase of urates in two of my three tortoises. One of my tortoises is a rescue, and she came to me with metabolic bone disease (MBD). I expected that she may encounter several dietary related problems, namely, bladder stones and compaction throughout her lifetime.

My other tortoise is one of two siblings I received nearly three years ago at one month old. While I've experienced several bladder stone issues with one sibling, the other sibling had never experienced bladder stones despite being on the same exact diets and experiencing the same environmental conditions.

After giving a small history on each tortoise, I've been forced to look closely at the foods I'm feeding my torts. An ingredient that troubles me is "Ash." I know that ash in cat food can cause urine to crystallize in the bladder, and can cause stones to appear. I believe the same holds true for the ash found in tortoise foods. Grassland, although a very desirable food-type, has a large percentage of ash in their pellets (10%). Even cat foods containing a large percentage of ash only has between 3.5-4% ash content or less.

Yes, cats and tortoises' metabolism is vastly different; however, ash in foods have similar affects on the bladder. It's the only explanation I have for the differences in the sibling's metabolism of calcium byproduct. I can't prove my suspicions of high levels of ash in tortoise foods, but the connection between the affects ash have on cats metabolism, and that of tortoises is compelling to say the least. What is your opinion on this matter?

 

[ascott]

Sibi, what is the rest of their diet like? I mean, if someone said (me ) said, Sibi--name the 5 top "regular" food items your tortoise eat as a supplemental offering...what would they be? Also, what is their enclosure/yard like? Indoors/outdoors and percentage of time in each (rounded up of course ) and what is their space like, I mean, can they walk and walk and walk for hours if they so desire? What is their soaking schedule like (time in the soak x times per week they are soaked)...there is a reason that this is happening, it is just fine tuning the details so you can immediately know what the issue may be...

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Any tortoise pellet is a supplement only. Your tortoises need grasses and weeds mostly. Even produce with dark leafy greens is better for them. I feed my tortoises Mazuri tortoise food as it has all kinds of good stuff in it, but I only feed it once a week. The rest of the week they are fed the best food for their species. If I were you I'd get rid of the Grassland stuff and get some Mazuri.

 

[sibi]

Sibi, what is the rest of their diet like? I mean, if someone said (me ) said, Sibi--name the 5 top "regular" food items your tortoise eat as a supplemental offering...what would they be? Also, what is their enclosure/yard like? Indoors/outdoors and percentage of time in each (rounded up of course ) and what is their space like, I mean, can they walk and walk and walk for hours if they so desire? What is their soaking schedule like (time in the soak x times per week they are soaked)...there is a reason that this is happening, it is just fine tuning the details so you can immediately know what the issue may be...

I agree totally. The thing of it is that my torts have it better than most here on the forum. I soak all my torts for at least 45 minutes everyday. Their enclosure is huge (10 x 12'). Their hides are warm and humid; in fact, the whole shed has a constant humidity level of 80+%. I have two humidifiers running most of the day and night. The yard they go out in is hugh with tons of weed and grass. I feed them mazuri, grassland tort food, and romaine. I had cut the amount of greens like kale, turnips, and collard greens. I increased the amounts of water based veggies like endive and romaine. They receive squirts of mineral oil in their mazuri every once in a while. The rest of the day, they roam, eat, and find shade from the sun. All this they've all had for over a year now since I've moved them to their shed.

My rescue, Baby Runt, has made amazing progress in the year and a half since I received her. With the same care as the others, and hand feeding her daily, she's over 15 pounds now, her MBD is improving, and she now she tries to feed herself in the yard among the tall weeds (LOL). She's so cute. I'll need to video tape her someday.

Having said that, Beasty Boy has had it the worst. Since he was about 8 months old, he had stones. One had to be surgically removed at UF in Gainsville, Fl. He has a disposition of developing stones with tons of urates being explelled from his bladder. Like I said, his brother had never experienced problems despite having the same diet and despite experiencing the same environmental conditions.

I've spoken to Tom about this, and it's hard for anyone to believe that this isn't a husbandry issue. But, my torts receive the best care, food, exercise, and uvb rays. So, now I've started to look at the ash in the Grassland tort food which had a large percentage of ash content. This I know has caused bladder problems in cats, and by the same token, can be responsible for the susceptibility of stones in torts, especially if a tort already has a propensity to develop stones. A penny for your thoughts.

 

[tortadise]

It may seem like ash from a fire place or what have you. However this is not the same ash. The process that occurs with manufactured food like tortoise, dog and cat food is the process in which they make it. The ash refered to in those foods is a combination of minerals and the debris left from that process. Typically it will be phosphorus" sodium, trace minerals, iron, calcium, and other goodies. It's just really the byproduct that creates an "inorganic" complex. The breakdown during the process of this food to get it to pellet form doesn't always mix 100% of the time. So legally they have to place it on the ingredients, and rightfully so.

When I managed a vet clinic we had many reps, from Hills,Purina,mans other food manufacturers come do educational seminars and this was brought up by some of our vets. Not too be too worried.

 

[sibi]

Thanks for the rundown on "ash."

It may seem like ash from a fire place or what have you. However this is not the same ash. The process that occurs with manufactured food like tortoise, dog and cat food is the process in which they make it. The ash refered to in those foods is a combination of minerals and the debris left from that process. Typically it will be phosphorus" sodium, trace minerals, iron, calcium, and other goodies. It's just really the byproduct that creates an "inorganic" complex. The breakdown during the process of this food to get it to pellet form doesn't always mix 100% of the time. So legally they have to place it on the ingredients, and rightfully so.

When I managed a vet clinic we had many reps, from Hills,Purina,mans other food manufacturers come do educational seminars and this was brought up by some of our vets. Not too be too worried.

Thanks for the rundown on "ash." I wasn't referring to fireplace ash though . I believe high levels of ash in foods can be problematic for animals that have a propensity to develop stones. In any case, I've eliminated the grassland tort pellets for the one tortoise having urate issues. I'll be interested to see if this has any affect on his condition. For any out there that think my torts only eat mazuri, Grassland tort food, and romaine, let me assure you that the torts have free reign to all natural grass and weeds all day long. I feed them mazuri because they're addicted to this stuff LOL

I'm just trying to get a good hold on what's causing the excess urates in the one tort despite providing the same foods and environmental conditions to all my torts. It's frustrating because I have spent thousands of dollars on blood work to get some answers. I'm at the point of conceiving to the fact that each tortoise metabolizes differently, and any predisposition that a tort has toward bladder stones may have nothing to do with my husbandry. It's frustrating because if I could do something to change this, it would have been done already. Money and know-how had never been an issue with their care. What's left that I hadn't already tried and documented for comparison and reference?

 

[tortadise]

Oh yes I threw that in, so it could clarify most readers. The play on words like ash can certainly alarm people.

I don't feed any matsuri or supplement food to grass eaters. Only croc chow to the omnivorous species we have. Only because it is higher quality than canned, or other cat foods, and cheaper than feeding raw or live animals.

I do have to say though. My female Sulcata has lots of I rates. Solid white semi moist. She eats nothing but grass, even in the winter. Occasionally my mom will give her a bell pepper, or squash after she lays eggs as a treat. But perhaps it's showing a perfect sign of processed calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium within the tortoises system. Without further exploring the adrenals glands, and taking biopsy of fluids from the animal you may not ever figure it out. I do agree that you pulled this tortoise off that diet too. Some(although very small percentage) dogs and cats did develop kidney stones with high ash content food. Those foods being removed from the diet did seem to help. But hard to say if it was the medication the animal was put on or the food being changed.

What sort of grasses and cactus do you feed too? Kale at all? Those are all very high in calcium phosphorus ratios.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

sibi, nobody is trying to say you don't do the best for your animals...we are just trying to figure out things same as you. Angela is experienced with tortoises and I can tell she's just trying to come up with ideas. I gave you my opinion on the Grassland pellets, and now I will say that I believe soaking everyday isn't good for them. I understand your fear of getting more bladder stones, but think about this...do they poop in the water? Most do and soaking daily usually makes the food/stool go thru too fast and they don't get the benefit of the nutrients. Not every tortoise and not every time. Within about the last 15 years tort husbandry has really changed, example, my sister and I raised a bazzilion tortoises on rabbit pellets, now 'they' say that pellets don't provide a stable walking surface and causes splay leg. None of my tortoises ever got splay leg, but I sure don't want to challenge that. Also we didn't know anything about humidity...you can't create humidity with pellets cuz you can't get them wet..one more thing, my Bob has gritty urates and a lot of them, yet he drinks a lot of water. Not all the advice fits or works with every tort....just some food for thought...oh and he doesn't release urates every time he pees. I am not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing...

 

[ascott]

Perhaps the problem is not the food/intake but rather the tortoise system itself....I mean, if the tort has had poor care, prior to now being cared for in a better set up....I would bet all of his parts have not developed properly--stunted, so don't work as they should....also, it sounds as though the diet is varied so even without that food offering--the tort is likely getting the nutritional values needed....and if you are offering the soaks then you are assuring he is hydrated....you will likely just have to continue the tweak for this tortoise and understand what makes life good for him and no bother to compare to the others, you know what I mean?

 

[ascott]

I also think another key factor would be access to long periods of exercise...even moreso than the other torts in your care....exercise is key to passing the goods

 

[sibi]

Please don't misunderstand...i didn't think for a moment that Angela was being anything but helpful. We're all just grasping at straws with my issues. As I mentioned before, I've concluded that every tort metabolizes differently. An otherwise healthy tortoise could eliminate an extreme amount of urates and it doesn't cause problems with bladder stones. Others, like mine, have bladder stones in the bladder for the past 6 months. The vet said the stones are likely stuck to the walls of the bladder which is why the stones are in the same place for months. The stones itself don't look particularly large, and he's past stones larger than the ones currently in his bladder.

Having said that, I know the you and Yvonne, and Angela have tons of experience with torts. And I truly appreciate that, and welcome advice that may work. I know and have read tons about this condition. I know what works for my torts and what doesn't work well. I bath my torts everyday because they don't drink any other way. I understand the rational about food passing through their system way too fast and how that can cost them nutritional value. My torts don't always defecate in their soaks, but they'll almost always urinate and pass urates. If I didn't soak them everyday, they'll self soak everyday without fail. And blood work on all my torts prove that their daily soaks are not compromising nutritional values. So, all I can do is examine each food group, and let them work out their ills. Btw, you do know that torts in the wild have stones in their bladder for years and are none for the wear.

 

[ascott]

Having said that, I know the you and Yvonne, and Angela have tons of experience with torts. And I truly appreciate that, and welcome advice that may work.

LOl...Sibi, I feel like you are trying too damn hard to not offend (going to place "me" here, as I can not speak for the other referenced ladies) me...let me assure you that we can speak frankly...if we get a little, whatever, that is alright by me I am grown, okay.

You are absolutely correct, you will get to know the torts in your care and will do what you find is beneficial for those torts....there is not two ways to offer care for two individual torts....every tort is an individual for sure... yes, torts do cary stones in their gut in the wild (and this causes great freak outs for a host with a tort in forced captivity, "ahhh the tort ate a few small stones" is it going to die? Well, we know that there can be a yes and a no here---right, too many variables to offer an exact precise answer....so we all try to offer as much info as possible but do so understanding this...

Dear, I do not believe, based on the information you have shared, that the ash is the sole culprit here---just don't. My gut says to me that the tort, during its growth, simply was not able to obtain needed nutrition and in turn the entire make up of the tort was not able to reach its full design--so the tort will have his own quirks...which are fine, especially since you are observing what works for you and the tort in your care, right?

So when you send out a "what do you think" type thread on a topic--well, you will get what we all think right? So, please do understand that there is no exact science for tortoise care...so many folks talk down "old school ways" and try to replace alot of those good ways with some new thoughts....so sometimes when a suggestion is offered, please do understand that while it may not "fix" your, or anothers, particular question/issue--there may be parts that can be used and will prove beneficial....

We all want the torts in your care to thrive in their captive environment....and that I feel secure enough to say Yvonne and Maggie and alot of others here, would agree....