Basking/Thermo-regulating Redfoots

[Redfoot NERD]

THIS IS NOT A DEBATABLE THREAD! ( not intended to be.. just wanted to share a unique occasion )

A cold-front came thru and brought a little shower and much cooler temps!

Much cooler than my redfoots had experinced this year! It had gotten into the lower-60's F the night before and not one was out at the usual time [ 8-9a ]

I was busy with something else until around noon so I don't know how long they had been out. I'm able to look out the back window to survey the situation.. when I did I noticed something I very seldom see. They weren't 'cruising' around as usual.. they were basically congregated into 2 groups.. not moving.. in the sun - it is LOW 70'sF at noon?!?!?!!! I don't recall seeing them having to 'thermo-regulate' [ some call it basking ] since I brought them outside earlier this year. This is a very very unusual sight for mine -

You see 2 '05 'keepers' in the lower right.. a 7" captive raised male from a trade [ pyramided ].. to the left the rear of SONshine and my '98 female raised "DRY" [ pyramided ] also.

On the other side of that wall is where the Brazilians live. The alpha male [ on right ] is almost always the first one out even at cooler temps. Same deal.. 2 groups congregated in the direct sun -

You can call that basking if you like.. that's anyones choice - basking to me is what my stars do. I put them out into their place around 10a [ I never leave them out regardless of the temps! ] and they seldom move until the temps reach the low 90's, which could be at least 2 hours or more. We must agree then that redfoot tortoises have lower temp/light tolerances? apparently?.. been my observation.

So I don't provide a 'basking/light' spot for their indoor enclosure - a dim-light spot to eat under so they can see and a heat source ( not light ) closer to their humid-hide.

NERD

 

[RichardS]

Cool photo, whatever the case.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Yeah Richard.. there was a group of the 5 [ in the first pic ].. and since their enclosure is heavily covered with a canopy of Rose-of-Sharon ( hibiscus 8' tall ) it is quite 'dappled' with light.. so there was another group together in a sunny spot at least 15' away.

And the same with the Brazilian side [ not as covered.. hence the wide open space of sun ].. 2 different groups, far apart! As soon as they all saw me they all started to move my direction - the food god.

NERD

 

[Tom]

Cool pics!

Very interesting given all the debate over this in the past.

Some fellow roach forum members have spent time in some of the south american rain forrests and claim to have measure temps as low as 63 down in the heavy underbrush and in the hollow trunks of some trees (You know, dark, dank places where roaches hang out.) This was surprising to me as I thought everything would be a uniform 80-85. In most cases temps in the hidden places were in the low 70's.

 

[Madkins007]

I like the classic "Sun Worship" pose you see, especially with the Brazilians- hind legs stuck straight back, front legs and necks out- just like Sliders on a log.

I see this in my Red-foots fairly often- sometimes in the sun, sometimes under the ceramic emitter, sometimes under the heat lamp- usually after a cooler snap or rain/watering.

 

[cdmay]

Cool pics!

Very interesting given all the debate over this in the past.

Some fellow roach forum members have spent time in some of the south american rain forrests and claim to have measure temps as low as 63 down in the heavy underbrush and in the hollow trunks of some trees (You know, dark, dank places where roaches hang out.) This was surprising to me as I thought everything would be a uniform 80-85. In most cases temps in the hidden places were in the low 70's.

One of the things that many Amazon Basin Boa constrictor keepers as well as emerald tree boa keepers learned over the years was that the rainforest is relatively cool. For a long time they couldn't figure out why their boas were not doing well at 85-95 degrees as they assumed (wrongly) that rainforest means hot.
Tropical fish hobbyists who maintain fish from the rainforest have known for many years that they prefer cooler temperatures too.
It seems that quite a number of people in this country have misconceptions about the various habitats that exist in the tropics.
You can see that it is an easy mistake to make however.
The same goes for red foot tortoises. A lot of people wrongly assume that all red foots come from very wet, warm and humid places. The idea that some red foots happily live in places with extreme dry seasons, or that they live in dry thorn scrub blows their mind. And then consider that some populations of red foots live in places where it gets to be near freezing (or actually freezes) each winter. That is why you can never make broad generalizations or absolute statements.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

First thing in the morning ( about 6:30 usually for me ) I look out back to see what's going on. The night time lows lately have been in the low 70's F.. with highs in the mid-90's +/- 5 F. Usually within an hour or so they start moving around.

Again this 16' x 24' space has these 8' 'hibiscus' planted on 4' centers about 4' from the 3 perimeter walls.. numbered enough so that a true canopy has been created [ by design - 3 years ago ].. those in the 'center' [ next to the divider wall ] are only 2' from that wall. This space is where the Northerns live. "Most" of the times they are seen cruising toward the interior of this space - in the dappled sun or resting right up next to the trunks of these bushes in total shade...... when not in their hide.

Directly on the other side of the dividing wall is the same size area with hibiscus spaced the same; but only half as many.. leaving a good 6' of wide open sun-filled space. [ by design - 3 years ago ] This is the area where the Brazilians live. And I see them 'cruising' in the direct sun more than in the dappled sun of the hibiscus. It appears they can tolerate more extreme temp variations.. lower lows and higher highs. [ I'm quite sure the 'monster' redfoots from the extreme Southern region are the ones Carl was referring to. ]

And this is the point of this thread.. which Carl confirmed before I was done typing this. Regardless.. this year I've only seen either group actually lay out together in direct sun.. this time.

NERD

 

[matt41gb]

Glad you finally caught them doing that. I've posted I don't know how many times about mine basking/thermo-regulating in the past. I've provided picture proof over and over again, but nobody has believed it. This is a normal behavior for red-foots. Cool to see pictures of others doing that.

-Matt

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Glad you finally caught them doing that. I've posted I don't know how many times about mine basking/thermo-regulating in the past. I've provided picture proof over and over again, but nobody has believed it. This is a normal behavior for red-foots. Cool to see pictures of others doing that.

-Matt

No Matt.. I just said this is NOT even close to a common occurance! Your last pics showed them in the dappled sun.

I'm trying to submit the fact/speculation that omnivors DO NOT "bask" to obtain the needed D3 that Herbivors do.. they [ the omnivors ] "bask" to thermoregulate. I'm not trying to debate anything.

I'm wondering if there is anything to this speculation that all herbivors [ example that Mark made and we've all seen.... 'sliders on a log!' ].. do in fact truly bask for that reason ALSO???

So do redfoots in captivity need to spend more time in the sun because they don't acquire the needed D3 [ not fed because of the OLD caresheets that claim tortoises don't eat high protein animal, etc. matter. ]? And being dark-shelled they thermoregulate quickly so they prefer the more "dappled" spaces.
Who is hearing what I'm asking?

NERD

 

[Madkins007]

It's beginning to sound like this should maybe be made into a debatable issue so we can discuss it in more depth? Are basking, thermo-regulation, and obtaining UVB all the same thing? What does it mean to say 'Red-foots do, or don't, bask'? (I'll be happy to restart it there if desired.)

Most dictionaries define 'bask' as 'to expose oneself to pleasant sunlight', from an older word meaning 'to bathe'. By that definition, there is no doubt that they bask- by that definition, my CAT basks. But why?

Basking to thermo-regulate or warm up? Sure, that's logical, and why my cat does it. If it has been cool, rainy or cloudy, or something, a nice dark animal would warm up quickly if it exposed itself to the sun for a bit. Deb Moskovitz and other field people have seen this in the wild, even for the deep forest dwelling populations.

Basking for UVB? That one is trickier. Do animals feel a drive or urge to expose themselves to the sun for vitamin D3 production? Humans do not seem to. I have seen articles that suggest that some structures in the tortoise eye can help it see UV light, which might suggest it can seek out UVB when needed, but how would we be able to tell if it is for UVB or just heat? Maybe we could try an experiment with a heat lamp vs. a Mega Ray and see if the tortoises tend to select one over the other?

Heck, we don't even know how much vitamin D a tortoise needs. A human only seems to need about 45 minutes of decent exposure a week. It seems that a tortoise in an outdoor pen would get that pretty easily, just walking from shade to shade, and probably even while IN the shade.

 

[chadk]

My sulcatas seem to bask mainly to thermoregulate. That it helps with the VitD3 seems to be a side benefit. It it is 50-70, the tort will find an optimal basking spot to catch rays to get warm. Once it hits 75-80 , they are off to find shade and some grass to eat. Much above 85 and they just sit in the shade until the temps drop in the evening, then start eating again before heading in for the night. Just my observations.

My redfoot hatchlings will congregate to the warm spot if I leave the door to their room open and the ambient room temp drops below 75. They'll move closer to the heat source that gets them back to the low 80's, even it it means leaving their hides that love so much.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Mark let's just talk about.

Unfortunately when an idea is thrown into the "DEBATABLE" arena it seems to bring out the 'defensive stupidity' in people.. and I for one am not interested in that. I'd just like to hear others' thoughts.

See how much better even your response.. which I much appreciate.. was, talking about it?

I submitted this 'speculation' to someone in an email and he thought it was because I kept mine at higher temps. I wrote back to explain the temp variations in my back yard.. which is not much different than some others.. but not as consistant in those in a more 'tropical' (?) climate. So the temps didn't cause them to 'bask' less. The only real difference is the re-hydrated cat food I feed them.. which they seem to be able to "walk-off-the-high(?)-fat-content".. being on the move a lot!

When mine are NOT in their hide they are on the move seeking something to eat - yes they do stop to rest, seldom in the direct sun. And I do have the advantage/luxury of being able to check on them any given time of the day.. being retired.

Thanks again all for the objective replies.

I'll continue to try my best to take pics that show details.. that might not be seen otherwise [ how do I say this? ] .. that tell a better story/explanation.. and not so much the beauty of the subject.

Other ideas?...

NERD

 

[chadk]

Oh, another observation - my box turtles (outdoor pen) bask quite a bit as well, and they are mainly 'meat' eaters (I don't mean to, but we happen to have an abundance of big worms, slugs, and snails here).

 

[matt41gb]

We have to look at it this way. All reptiles need to thermoregulate. While they are basking they inadvertently metabolize vitamin D. So, this almost seems like a moot topic to me.

Why do sliders bask when water temps are in the 80s? They don't need to warm up, they need sunlight (they are omnivores) that must not be getting enough vitamin D.

Vitamin D is constantly being used by the body for bone growth and nerve function. I see it this way. If a turtle like a slider is actively swimming and using a lot of energy, they will require a higher exposure to vitamin D. A red-foot on the other hand is relatively slow and spends most of its time hiding, or dormant. They would require less calcium since their body isn't screaming for it on a higher level. Basking in dappled light is an example.

I believe that all turtles and tortoises should have options (microclimates) so they can pick and choose where they want to spend their time. They are definitely smart enough to take care of themselves.

I also believe (like what was stated before) that we do not know enough about how much calcium a reptile needs. They know, so we should never deprive them of sunlight, or at least from being outside. We could go on and on about this and we'll never know the real answer.

So pretty much how you want to look at it, thermoregulation (basking) and vitamin D absorption go hand and hand.

-Matt

 

[Madkins007]

The main thing I can think of that would possibly explain why your guys do not bask more often is 'microclimates'. If your guys regularly get the temps, etc. they want without exposing themselves to possible predators for longer periods, why bother?

My poor guys, on the other hand, apparently are not getting that. My house blocks much of the evening sun and it takes a bit for the morning sun to clear the other houses and trees. If we planted monitoring devices in our pens, I suspect we would see some significant differences in the microclimates even though we are on about the same latitude.

 

[spikethebest]

love the pics. thanks for sharing. i wish i had some redfoots.