Baytril Injections for Leopard Daily?

[Pippen's Pal]

Hi all, I have a Leopard Tort male, 17kg who was diagnoased with a URTI. He is still eating but very lethargic and has the clear bubbles coming from his nose and his eyes are watery. He also has white chuinks of "something" looks like thick mucous coming out of his nose now and again.
Vet has prescibed 1.5ml baytril injection daily, or 3ml on alternate days. Baytteil is not diluted. Those of you who have soem veterinary / medical experience, is this OKAY?
Previous experience has shown me that some, not all, Leopards have adverse reactions to Baytril. It also burns like the clappers, so much so that they can stop eating. However, when it works, it works well.
The boy had one shot early this morning and just wanted to hide. He did some neck stretching and gaping, but that could be due to his lungs being so compromised. I was not able to stay with him more than a half hour to check his reactions, but he walked into a corner (in an outdoor enclosure) and stayed there for a while. He seemed uncomfortable, but Like I said, I know that Baytril BURNS! Doc said not to worry about sterile abcesses because they are not a major issue and torts do recover if they ever occur, which is unlikely. This vet works with reptiles at our local acquarium and treats snakes, torts and turtles, amongst other animals.
Please share your opinions and experiences.
Thank you,

 

[wellington]

@Yvonne G

 

[Tom]

Hi all, I have a Leopard Tort male, 17kg who was diagnoased with a URTI. He is still eating but very lethargic and has the clear bubbles coming from his nose and his eyes are watery. He also has white chuinks of "something" looks like thick mucous coming out of his nose now and again.
Vet has prescibed 1.5ml baytril injection daily, or 3ml on alternate days. Baytteil is not diluted. Those of you who have soem veterinary / medical experience, is this OKAY?
Previous experience has shown me that some, not all, Leopards have adverse reactions to Baytril. It also burns like the clappers, so much so that they can stop eating. However, when it works, it works well.
The boy had one shot early this morning and just wanted to hide. He did some neck stretching and gaping, but that could be due to his lungs being so compromised. I was not able to stay with him more than a half hour to check his reactions, but he walked into a corner (in an outdoor enclosure) and stayed there for a while. He seemed uncomfortable, but Like I said, I know that Baytril BURNS! Doc said not to worry about sterile abcesses because they are not a major issue and torts do recover if they ever occur, which is unlikely. This vet works with reptiles at our local acquarium and treats snakes, torts and turtles, amongst other animals.
Please share your opinions and experiences.
Thank you,

No. Not oaky. Baytril burns them like bleach and it should never be injected. There are better drugs that don't damage them now. Ask your vet for Fortaz. Baytril was the stand 20 years ago. We saw the burns, we saw the bad reactions, and we saw the deaths. We didn't know any better, and we didn't know of any better alternatives. Now we do.

Here is one of the many ongoing problems with vets and tortoises: They see a symptom and attempt to treat the symptom. Sounds good, right? Wrong. Tortoises and other wild animals don't get sick for no reason like frail humans do. When a tortoise gets sick, there is a reason. If you don't discover and correct the reason, treating the symptoms is pointless and futile. Often correcting the problem cures the sickness without harsh treatments.

RIs are usually caused by low temperatures. Especially at night. Leopards are infamous for it. You need a heated night box for them to shelter and protect them from predators and pests at night, and to keep them warm. But you might argue that you are in the native range of this animal. Why would they need additional heat? Who heats the wild ones that live outside your walls? To that I would answer: Your captive housing is not the wild. They can't behave and do the things and go to the places they would go in the wild when confined to your yard and enclosure. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

The other problem with vets is that they don't know tortoise care. Vets know surgery, wound treatment, how to dose medicines when needed, and all sorts of useful good stuff. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school and they learn what they know from the same old wrong sources that everyone else learns from. They are just people. They learn much more about medical issues than people who didn't go to vet school, but they do NOT learn more about tortoise care than people who have been keeping multiple species in many different ways, at all stages of life from hatching to old adults, and experimenting with what care methods work best for decades.

This thread is for people new to this forum, not new to tortoises. I saw your introduction thread and I realize you are not a novice. The point of this thread is to dispel some of the commonly repeated tortoise care myths and catch new TFO members up to speed. There is a leopard tortoise care sheet near the bottom, and a temperate species care sheet for the Angulata too.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome!

 

[Yvonne G]

Most leopard tortoises have a very adverse reaction to Baytril. It is NOT advised to use Baytril on a leopard tortoise!

 

[Pippen's Pal]

No. Not oaky. Baytril burns them like bleach and it should never be injected. There are better drugs that don't damage them now. Ask your vet for Fortaz. Baytril was the stand 20 years ago. We saw the burns, we saw the bad reactions, and we saw the deaths. We didn't know any better, and we didn't know of any better alternatives. Now we do.

Here is one of the many ongoing problems with vets and tortoises: They see a symptom and attempt to treat the symptom. Sounds good, right? Wrong. Tortoises and other wild animals don't get sick for no reason like frail humans do. When a tortoise gets sick, there is a reason. If you don't discover and correct the reason, treating the symptoms is pointless and futile. Often correcting the problem cures the sickness without harsh treatments.

RIs are usually caused by low temperatures. Especially at night. Leopards are infamous for it. You need a heated night box for them to shelter and protect them from predators and pests at night, and to keep them warm. But you might argue that you are in the native range of this animal. Why would they need additional heat? Who heats the wild ones that live outside your walls? To that I would answer: Your captive housing is not the wild. They can't behave and do the things and go to the places they would go in the wild when confined to your yard and enclosure. Here are two examples:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

The other problem with vets is that they don't know tortoise care. Vets know surgery, wound treatment, how to dose medicines when needed, and all sorts of useful good stuff. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school and they learn what they know from the same old wrong sources that everyone else learns from. They are just people. They learn much more about medical issues than people who didn't go to vet school, but they do NOT learn more about tortoise care than people who have been keeping multiple species in many different ways, at all stages of life from hatching to old adults, and experimenting with what care methods work best for decades.

This thread is for people new to this forum, not new to tortoises. I saw your introduction thread and I realize you are not a novice. The point of this thread is to dispel some of the commonly repeated tortoise care myths and catch new TFO members up to speed. There is a leopard tortoise care sheet near the bottom, and a temperate species care sheet for the Angulata too.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome!

We dont get Fortaz here, but have Taziject for humans. I asked, he said it is not suitable. Tort has not been looked after and had the wrong diet. Now he is sick and I'm trying to help him.

 

[Tom]

We dont get Fortaz here, but have Taziject for humans. I asked, he said it is not suitable. Tort has not been looked after and had the wrong diet. Now he is sick and I'm trying to help him.

@Olddog
@Markw84
@dd33

What are other suitable substitutes for Baytril if a person can't get Fortaz?

@Pippen's Pal The best thing you can do for this tortoise is get him somewhere warm and keep him warm day and night. Daytime temps around 32-34C, and not below 29C at night, for two weeks after symptoms disappear. This will be especially important when your weather begins to cool in a month or two and you move into Fall. With all the extra heat, keep the tortoise well hydrated by feeding lots of "wet" type foods and spraying all the food with water, along with regular warm water soaks. I find a large outdoor night box to be the easiest way to do this, but some people bring them indoors and heat a whole room.

I would not do anymore Baytril. That could kill him. Some species are prone to having a bad reaction to Baytril, on top of literally burning the flesh at the injection site, and leopards are one of those as Yvonne pointed out.

 

[mark1]

your vet is correct ceftazidime is not a suitable replacement for enrofloxacin....... that is a fact ....... ceftazidime works by inhibiting enzymes needed for cell wall synthesis , mycoplasma , which is most likely what your tortoise has, does not have cell walls ..... there are quite a few suitable replacements , tetracyclines , which are said to be worse for causing abscesses, macrolides and there are other fluoroquinolones...... i've used a lot of baytril , i've yet to notice any abscesses.... as far as a reaction and species , i've never had leopard tortoises.... your vet being in south africa i'd guess has seen and treated a bunch?

 

[Pippen's Pal]

your vet is correct ceftazidime is not a suitable replacement for enrofloxacin....... that is a fact ....... ceftazidime works by inhibiting enzymes needed for cell wall synthesis , mycoplasma , which is most likely what your tortoise has, does not have cell walls ..... there are quite a few suitable replacements , tetracyclines , which are said to be worse for causing abscesses, macrolides and there are other fluoroquinolones...... i've used a lot of baytril , i've yet to notice any abscesses.... as far as a reaction and species , i've never had leopard tortoises.... your vet being in south africa i'd guess has seen and treated a bunch?

your vet is correct ceftazidime is not a suitable replacement for enrofloxacin....... that is a fact ....... ceftazidime works by inhibiting enzymes needed for cell wall synthesis , mycoplasma , which is most likely what your tortoise has, does not have cell walls ..... there are quite a few suitable replacements , tetracyclines , which are said to be worse for causing abscesses, macrolides and there are other fluoroquinolones...... i've used a lot of baytril , i've yet to notice any abscesses.... as far as a reaction and species , i've never had leopard tortoises.... your vet being in south africa i'd guess has seen and treated a bunch?

Not many people legally keep tortoises as

P

@Olddog
@Markw84
@dd33

What are other suitable substitutes for Baytril if a person can't get Fortaz?

@Pippen's Pal The best thing you can do for this tortoise is get him somewhere warm and keep him warm day and night. Daytime temps around 32-34C, and not below 29C at night, for two weeks after symptoms disappear. This will be especially important when your weather begins to cool in a month or two and you move into Fall. With all the extra heat, keep the tortoise well hydrated by feeding lots of "wet" type foods and spraying all the food with water, along with regular warm water soaks. I find a large outdoor night box to be the easiest way to do this, but some people bring them indoors and heat a whole room.

I would not do anymore Baytril. That could kill him. Some species are prone to having a bad reaction to Baytril, on top of literally burning the flesh at the injection site, and leopards are one of those as Yvonne pointed out.I have Pip sleeping in a kennel at night but I can bring him indoors, no problem with that.

I asked about teracycline and was told administered orally is best. I'm not home until around 18:00 and he'll be asleep already, so wont take food I've doctored. I have sleeping in a kennel covered with a towel so no dew gets on him. Not many people keep tortoises legally here, so if they do get sick, they just get released into the wild. I dont know how much experience our exotic vets have with torts, but these are exotic vets. I've been feeding him a lot of opuntia and some butternut. I'll start wetting his food and provude updates. Thank you all.

 

[Pippen's Pal]

P

I asked about teracycline and was told administered orally is best. I'm not home until around 18:00 and he'll be asleep already, so wont take food I've doctored. I have sleeping in a kennel covered with a towel so no dew gets on him. Not many people keep tortoises legally here, so if they do get sick, they just get released into the wild. I dont know how much experience our exotic vets have with torts, but these are exotic vets. I've been feeding him a lot of opuntia and some butternut. I'll start wetting his food and provude updates. Thank you all.

Hi all,
The vet has agreed to get pricing for Doxy, they don't stock it. He says that Pip will need 3ml every 3 days IM for 45 days. The boy doesn't have a lot of meat on him. I'm used to doing SC in the front legs, but have no clue about injecting IM. I can learn, but that's a stack of injections in a small area. Your input is welcomed.

 

[Pippen's Pal]

Vet asked if I could dose orally. Pip was still eating prior to teh Baytril shot, so I was thinking what I could inject that he would eat, that wouldn't dilute the dose too much. The oral dosing volume would probably be larger too?

 

[mark1]

Nasal Discharge in Tortoises Thomas H. Boyer, DVM, DABVP (Reptile & Amphibian Practice) Pet Hospital of Penasquitos, San Diego, CA, USA
"Four major classes of drugs are used to systemically treat Mycoplasma include fluoroquinolones, macrolides, tetracyclines and chloramphenicol. Aminoglycosides are not indicated. Tetracyclines and chloramphenicol are not commonly used in chelonians, probably because of a lack of pharmacokinetic data. Tetracyclines are used in crocodilians with mycoplasmosis, Jarchow recommended 6 mg/kg oxytetracycline IM q 24 hrs x 10–14 days for tortoises. Fluoroquinolones options include enrofloxacin (Baytril 100, 100 mg/ml, or Baytril 2.27%, 22.7 mg/ml, Bayer Corp, Shawnee Mission, KS, 5 mg/kg SC q 24 hrs for 3–6 weeks, vary injection site for Baytril 2.27%), or danofloxacin mesylate (A180, 180 mg/ml, Pfizer Animal Health, NY, NY, 6 mg/kg SC q 48 hours for 3–6 weeks) or clarithromycin (Biaxin, 50 mg/ml, Abbott Labs, Abbott Park, IL, 15 mg/kg PO q 48–72 hours for 3–6 weeks). Palatability is horrible with clarithromycin but in some cooperative chelonians it can be given orally. Antibiotics alone, even long term, do not seem to clear Mycoplasma, perhaps because Mycoplasma spp. live on the nasal epithelial surface and do not penetrate into tissue. One study, Rettenmund, et al, 2014, treated Mycoplasma PCR positive asymptomatic Forsten’s tortoises, Indotestudo forstenii, and Sulawesi forest turtles, Leucocephalon yuwonoi, with 20 mg/kg clarithromycin PO q 2–3 days for 3 months. Clarithromycin failed to suppress Mycoplasma shedding in 9 out of 10 PCR positive animals.
Another retrospective preliminary study of 10 symptomatic single desert tortoises showed promising results in eliminating clinical signs. No diagnostics were performed. Jarchow 2004, combined nasal flushing with systemic enrofloxacin and found 8 out of 10 desert tortoises remained asymptomatic while still being monitored, for 11–78 months, and 2 out of 10 became symptomatic again at 12 and 30 months post treatment. Treatment consisted of 5 mg/kg enrofloxacin (2.27% or 100 mg/ml) IM in the brachial muscle q 72 hrs (with a range of 48 to 96 hrs) for a total of 3 to 5 treatments and, in addition, flushing the nasal sinus with a solution of 3.0 mg enrofloxacin (2.27%), 0.12 mg dexamethasone (not DexNaP), and 0.8 ml 0.9% sodium chloride, q 72 hrs (with a range of 48 to 96 hrs), also for 3 to 5 treatments. Nasal flushes were applied by placing the (unsedated) tortoise in dorsal recumbency, opening the mouth and flooding the choanae with the flush solution. The mouth was then closed and the solution forced through the nares by applying digital pressure on the intermandibular tissue, pushing the tongue into the choanae. The process was then repeated and the tortoise returned to sternal recumbency before again applying pressure to the intermandibular tissue. The nasal cavity was flushed repeatedly in this manner until only the flushing solution, with no obvious mucus, was expelled from the nares. Treatment was usually one time past resolution of clinical signs, five treatments was typically needed"

 

[Pippen's Pal]

Nasal Discharge in Tortoises Thomas H. Boyer, DVM, DABVP (Reptile & Amphibian Practice) Pet Hospital of Penasquitos, San Diego, CA, USA
"Four major classes of drugs are used to systemically treat Mycoplasma include fluoroquinolones, macrolides, tetracyclines and chloramphenicol. Aminoglycosides are not indicated. Tetracyclines and chloramphenicol are not commonly used in chelonians, probably because of a lack of pharmacokinetic data. Tetracyclines are used in crocodilians with mycoplasmosis, Jarchow recommended 6 mg/kg oxytetracycline IM q 24 hrs x 10–14 days for tortoises. Fluoroquinolones options include enrofloxacin (Baytril 100, 100 mg/ml, or Baytril 2.27%, 22.7 mg/ml, Bayer Corp, Shawnee Mission, KS, 5 mg/kg SC q 24 hrs for 3–6 weeks, vary injection site for Baytril 2.27%), or danofloxacin mesylate (A180, 180 mg/ml, Pfizer Animal Health, NY, NY, 6 mg/kg SC q 48 hours for 3–6 weeks) or clarithromycin (Biaxin, 50 mg/ml, Abbott Labs, Abbott Park, IL, 15 mg/kg PO q 48–72 hours for 3–6 weeks). Palatability is horrible with clarithromycin but in some cooperative chelonians it can be given orally. Antibiotics alone, even long term, do not seem to clear Mycoplasma, perhaps because Mycoplasma spp. live on the nasal epithelial surface and do not penetrate into tissue. One study, Rettenmund, et al, 2014, treated Mycoplasma PCR positive asymptomatic Forsten’s tortoises, Indotestudo forstenii, and Sulawesi forest turtles, Leucocephalon yuwonoi, with 20 mg/kg clarithromycin PO q 2–3 days for 3 months. Clarithromycin failed to suppress Mycoplasma shedding in 9 out of 10 PCR positive animals.
Another retrospective preliminary study of 10 symptomatic single desert tortoises showed promising results in eliminating clinical signs. No diagnostics were performed. Jarchow 2004, combined nasal flushing with systemic enrofloxacin and found 8 out of 10 desert tortoises remained asymptomatic while still being monitored, for 11–78 months, and 2 out of 10 became symptomatic again at 12 and 30 months post treatment. Treatment consisted of 5 mg/kg enrofloxacin (2.27% or 100 mg/ml) IM in the brachial muscle q 72 hrs (with a range of 48 to 96 hrs) for a total of 3 to 5 treatments and, in addition, flushing the nasal sinus with a solution of 3.0 mg enrofloxacin (2.27%), 0.12 mg dexamethasone (not DexNaP), and 0.8 ml 0.9% sodium chloride, q 72 hrs (with a range of 48 to 96 hrs), also for 3 to 5 treatments. Nasal flushes were applied by placing the (unsedated) tortoise in dorsal recumbency, opening the mouth and flooding the choanae with the flush solution. The mouth was then closed and the solution forced through the nares by applying digital pressure on the intermandibular tissue, pushing the tongue into the choanae. The process was then repeated and the tortoise returned to sternal recumbency before again applying pressure to the intermandibular tissue. The nasal cavity was flushed repeatedly in this manner until only the flushing solution, with no obvious mucus, was expelled from the nares. Treatment was usually one time past resolution of clinical signs, five treatments was typically needed"

I know the mycoplasma will not be wiped out, but I need something to help clear this boys lungs. If tetracycline isn't commonly used and he is allergic to baytril, what does that leave me? I already flush his nares, syringe with catheter tube, daily with a saline solution and funnily enough baytril. It seems he only reacts so strongly when it is injected.

 

[Pippen's Pal]

Update: so no injectable tetracycline available at suppliers locally. For now I am flushing his nares with saline solution and Baytril and nebulising him with an F10 solution and a broncholytic. He ate again today and I have him sleeping indoors. Thanks for your input.

 

[Maggie3fan]

I am not an expert nor am I very experienced..however, I did treat Gopherus agassizzi for mycoplasma that presented itself as a UTI. Blood tests showed exploded cells, hence the diagnosis...this was a while ago and I lived in California...I was given this sick desert tortoise and after the diagnosis I was kinda on my own as I couldn't afford regular Vet treatment... At any feed store I went to I could buy tetracycline powder that was for treating cattles' water. I didn't know what dosage to use so I would put 2 tablespoons in a shallow soaking water and he'd soak for about 30 minutes, then I would dry him off and squirt nasal spray into his nares trying to keep them clear...at times I also used a snot sucker to try to pull out the mucus. When I was left on my own for this I worked on this tortoise everyday...about 3 times a day I suck his nares and twice a day with the spray. I soaked him everyday...3 times a week with the terramycin powder and daily in strained carrots. Honestly I did this everyday for about 5 years. His symptoms went away and he had been eating good and altho, I know I didn't 'cure' this tortoise, but he is over 20 years old now and in great health and shows no outward signs of mycoplasma. Yvonne tells me you need a prescription now, but I can't see why you couldn't get one...terramycine/tetracycline is really the way to go...the only outward signs this tortoise has now is one kinda bigger nares...

 

[Yvonne G]

I know the mycoplasma will not be wiped out, but I need something to help clear this boys lungs. If tetracycline isn't commonly used and he is allergic to baytril, what does that leave me? I already flush his nares, syringe with catheter tube, daily with a saline solution and funnily enough baytril. It seems he only reacts so strongly when it is injected.

For years all I used on my sick rescues was tetracycline powder mixed in warm water and soaked the animal in it for an hour or so. It was cheap at the feed store, and it worked!

You can still get it, but you need a prescription.

 

[Pippen's Pal]

For years all I used on my sick rescues was tetracycline powder mixed in warm water and soaked the animal in it for an hour or so. It was cheap at the feed store, and it worked!

You can still get it, but you need a prescription.

I've used this for birds and it's still freely available in small quantities, but this boy is 17kg, so not sure if this will be cost effective. Th nasal flushing and nebuliser seems to be helping some.

 

[Pippen's Pal]

Fantastic new!!! Our vet has locted a company that will make up a teramcyin paste for my boy. I'll spread it on butternut or opuntia and feed it to him daily for a month or so. Better than any injections, that's for sure. Thank you all for your input.

 

[Maggie3fan]

I know the mycoplasma will not be wiped out, but I need something to help clear this boys lungs. If tetracycline isn't commonly used and he is allergic to baytril, what does that leave me? I already flush his nares, syringe with catheter tube, daily with a saline solution and funnily enough baytril. It seems he only reacts so strongly when it is injected.

I had Gopherus agassizii with mycoplasma who is 22 years old...his whole life I treated him just as @Yvonne G told you...Daily tetracycline powder soaks with strained carrots...every day...EVERY DAY for 17 years. He is still alive without snot bubbles or URTI. I don't think your tort is warm enuf...Putting a towel over him to protect from due is BAD...cool and wet is BAD. He needs a warm (20c) small box to sleep in with a warming bulb...29c he needs to be almost hot most of the time to get rid of the disease. It is very obvious to me, Tom and Yvonne that he is too cold for the disease to leave. 29 degrees celcius all the time...he needs to be warm to hot ALL THE TIME...here is the tortoise, happy healthy and beautiful
I also used a human nasal spray to help him breathe...now he only has 1 nostril, but it works and he is living a happy not sick life...I really treated him daily for 17 years...That is exactly what you have to do...I didn't use a Vet at all, except for the diagnosis. I used my sister who is an expert in Leopard tortoises and Gopherus agassizii and other species...with her knowledge I don't need a Vet...now she and Tom and I are telling you exactly what you need to do..follow our directions...this is one happy tortoise...

 

[Yvonne G]

I've used this for birds and it's still freely available in small quantities, but this boy is 17kg, so not sure if this will be cost effective. Th nasal flushing and nebuliser seems to be helping some.

If you can buy the powered terramycin, you mix a quarter teaspoon in warm water and soak the tortoise in it. The water should come up to the middle of his sides, so you use a smallish container with tall sides.

 

[Pippen's Pal]

Fantastic new!!! Our vet has locted a company that will make up a teramcyin paste for my boy. I'll spread it on butternut or opuntia and feed it to him daily for a month or so. Better than any injections, that's for sure. Thank you all for your input.

Tetracycline paste, not teramycin.