Behavior Questions

[dtlove]

Hello!

I got a juvenile Hermann's tortoise a couple of weeks ago (between 6-12 months old), so far we're happy with how he's settling, but I have some questions about some of the things he does. I thought I was well prepared for taking him home, but it seems no amount of prep work could get me ready, and there is so much varied information online.

He's in a vivexotic tortoise table, with a MVB bulb providing UVA, UVB, and heat which is about 12" above the right side of the table. Substrate is a layer of the standard store bought mediterranean substrate and a layer of orchid bark on the top giving him a few inches of depth to burrow in. He has a cuttlefish bone that he munches on and moves around, has a varied diet of some safe store bought greens and a wide range of stuff from the garden which is supplemented with a sprinkle of Nutrobal every few days. We're also growing some tortoise safe plants and weeds to keep up the variation. We soak on every second day, or sometimes daily if he gets messy.

He is insured, and will be going to a well recommended local vet in the next few weeks for a checkup.

My questions/concerns for experienced owners are:

1. How much sleep is too much? He'll get up to eat and drink, and after his soak he tends to have an hour or two running around and climbing, but most mornings and early afternoons he'll just chill with his eyes shut, usually under the lamp. His first few days of being with us he was awake and running a lot, but as he settled this stopped - Is this fine, or should we be looking for something?
2. Back legs stick out a lot? He walks with his rear end real close to the ground, and the back legs stick out behind him. I figured he's too young to have developed MBD or similar, and he does use his legs with some strength too, he likes climbing and does get quite active. Is this just a thing Hermann's do?
3. Eye care? Just this afternoon he rubbed his right eye a fair bit, and it was closed last night, and with the frequent napping we were concerned for a bit that there could be eye problems. There are no visible signs of damage though - he responds to movement, opens them fully when walking around, and there isn't any discharge or anything similar. Do we just need to soak him and make sure we rinse his eye?

 

[Karen(pebbles)]

Hi and welcome to the forum, if you could post some pics of your tort and your set up somebody will be along to help you

 

[dtlove]

Hi and welcome to the forum, if you could post some pics of your tort and your set up somebody will be along to help you

Yes absolutely! I'm aware the lamp needs moving, I'm working on that this evening.


This is him just now:

 

[Maro2Bear]

Greetings. I’m guessing that your little tort is probably too cold. Any heat quickly rises up & out of ur enclosure and the temp gauge you do have is known to be inaccurate & not placed very well.

How are you providing heat 24/7 ?

Check your temps & look into a fully enclosed enclosure.

Good luck

 

[dtlove]

Greetings. I’m guessing that your little tort is probably too cold. Any heat quickly rises up & out of ur enclosure and the temp gauge you do have is known to be inaccurate & not placed very well.

How are you providing heat 24/7 ?

Check your temps & look into a fully enclosed enclosure.

Good luck

Thanks for the quick reply!

I've moved the lamp so it sits directly above, and closer. This should raise temps on the right side where he chills during the day. I should be able to easily place a lid on the top to raise humidity and temps.

I've read mixed info on 24/7 heating, at the moment we just have the lamp on 8am to 8pm, and he's in the same room I spend most evenings so it's never cold, he takes himself to sleep around 7pm and burrows. I can fit a heat pad into the built in hide for night time if this will likely help.

 

[TheLastGreen]

Hi and welcome! As @Maro2Bear said you'll need a closed enclosure. It stops pyramiding.
Here are the caresheets

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

www.tortoiseforum.org

Closed "Chambers"

Been meaning to do this one for a while now... Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around...

www.tortoiseforum.org

@Tom is the expert
You should remove the MVB bulb and replace it with a HO fluorescent tube, as said in the caresheet. MVB causes pyramiding.
I think the heating and humidity would be the biggest problem, but the solutions are listed in the caresheets.
Babies do sleep a lot, but wrong temps and low humidity may trigger problems like sleeping a lot. Luckily as mentioned babies sleep a lot so I think you're fine, the temps and humidity may add to it, so best to fix it to ensure good health for your tort
I'm not sure on the legs, hopefuly @Tom can weigh in on that.
As for the eyes. It may be low humidity causing it, sometimes after waking up they do rub their eyes, but I'm not sure

 

[dtlove]

Hi and welcome! As @Maro2Bear said you'll need a closed enclosure. It stops pyramiding.
Here are the caresheets

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

www.tortoiseforum.org

Closed "Chambers"

Been meaning to do this one for a while now... Over the years I have kept a lot of reptiles in a lot of different ways. I've learned a lot of stuff about a lot of species. Since finding and joining this forum almost two years ago, I've learned a TON more. Now I'm not just stumbling around...

www.tortoiseforum.org

@Tom is the expert
You should remove the MVB bulb and replace it with a HO fluorescent tube, as said in the caresheet. MVB causes pyramiding.
I think the heating and humidity would be the biggest problem, but the solutions are listed in the caresheets.
Babies do sleep a lot, but wrong temps and low humidity may trigger problems like sleeping a lot. Luckily as mentioned babies sleep a lot so I think you're fine, the temps and humidity may add to it, so best to fix it to ensure good health for your tort
I'm not sure on the legs, hopefuly @Tom can weigh in on that.
As for the eyes. It may be low humidity causing it, sometimes after waking up they do rub their eyes, but I'm not sure

This is great, thank you.

Getting the 'right' bulb/lighting setup has been a nightmare. This bulb was sold to us as a good solution to our lighting problems. I'll look into sorting a tube light soon, but when I move I'll likely use a vivarium anyway.

He perked up after his soak, so we're certain humidity and temps are adding to his sleeping and eyes, so we'll see if we can sort this.

He'll be going to a vet next week for a health check anyway so I'm hoping if I'm missing something we'll know then.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Hey there.

Maybe you have already seen this guide, Chris is a top guru on these torts. Hopefully his info all condensed in one care sheet will help.

https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/

There’s a good section on temperature, humidity…etc

 

[zolasmum]

Hello and welcome. I used to live in Nottingham - Cinderhill -but now in Devon. We have a Hermann's tortoise, who is now aged 21 - when we got him there was very little information around on how to look after him - this forum is such a good place, and you will find lots of help if needed.
Best wishes
Angie

 

[Lyn W]

Hi and welcome,
The Mediterranean/Temperate species carseheet linked above is the most up to date you'll find anywhere.
If you post some pics of your enclosure and the bulbs you are using you'll get good feedback to make it's as safe as possible for you baby, and advice on to enclose it, if changing to a large viv isn't possible.

 

[dtlove]

Some photos of the bulbs:



He's still eating his normal amount and is slightly active in the evenings, and he is opening his eyes, but we're concerned about the lack of activity and how much he tries to keep his eyes shut.

He is at a vet on Tuesday for a checkup, but if anyone has any input I'd appreciate it.

 

[Tom]

Hello!

I got a juvenile Hermann's tortoise a couple of weeks ago (between 6-12 months old), so far we're happy with how he's settling, but I have some questions about some of the things he does. I thought I was well prepared for taking him home, but it seems no amount of prep work could get me ready, and there is so much varied information online.

He's in a vivexotic tortoise table, with a MVB bulb providing UVA, UVB, and heat which is about 12" above the right side of the table. Substrate is a layer of the standard store bought mediterranean substrate and a layer of orchid bark on the top giving him a few inches of depth to burrow in. He has a cuttlefish bone that he munches on and moves around, has a varied diet of some safe store bought greens and a wide range of stuff from the garden which is supplemented with a sprinkle of Nutrobal every few days. We're also growing some tortoise safe plants and weeds to keep up the variation. We soak on every second day, or sometimes daily if he gets messy.

He is insured, and will be going to a well recommended local vet in the next few weeks for a checkup.

My questions/concerns for experienced owners are:

1. How much sleep is too much? He'll get up to eat and drink, and after his soak he tends to have an hour or two running around and climbing, but most mornings and early afternoons he'll just chill with his eyes shut, usually under the lamp. His first few days of being with us he was awake and running a lot, but as he settled this stopped - Is this fine, or should we be looking for something?
2. Back legs stick out a lot? He walks with his rear end real close to the ground, and the back legs stick out behind him. I figured he's too young to have developed MBD or similar, and he does use his legs with some strength too, he likes climbing and does get quite active. Is this just a thing Hermann's do?
3. Eye care? Just this afternoon he rubbed his right eye a fair bit, and it was closed last night, and with the frequent napping we were concerned for a bit that there could be eye problems. There are no visible signs of damage though - he responds to movement, opens them fully when walking around, and there isn't any discharge or anything similar. Do we just need to soak him and make sure we rinse his eye?

What are your four temperatures? Warm side, cool side, basking area, and overnight low?

The usual pet store tortoise substrate has sand, soil, and sometimes little white bits of calcium mixed in. None of these should be used for tortoise substrate. The orchid bark is the best. I'd switch to just that.

Unfortunately for the tortoises of the world, there is all sorts of misinformation, contradictory information, and just plain wrong information. Pet shops are one of the worst places to get care info and tortoise products. They sell you the wrong things and then give you care advice that will often result in the death or disfigurement of the animal. Vets are not any better. They give unnecessary and potentially harmful "vitamin injections", and if you bring them a sick tortoise, they attempt to treat the symptoms without first addressing and correcting the CAUSE of the sickness. Then you go online and you'll get the same wrong info 90% of the time and then contradictory info the other 10% of the time. Its hard to know what to do. If you keep soldiering on, you will eventually learn all the things we are telling you, but that road comes with a heavy price tag for the animals in your care. This forum is the only place to get good tortoise care info that I have found. Many of the members here are long time keepers with decades of experience to draw from, and we bounce ideas and practices off of each other to figure out what works best and why. We don't always agree on every point, but this is the best there is.

In your enclosure: MVBs can cause eye problems, and pyramiding. They are not reliable as a UV source either.
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Get rid of the sandy substrate. That is another possible cause of the eye irritation.

Is your substrate damp? Substrate dust is another frequent cause of eye problems.

Cold temps are the forth common cause for eye issues. You need to know the temps in your enclosure and keep the whole thing warm enough. The correct temps are listed in the care sheet that Lyn linked for you. Heat mats should not be used with tortoises. Use either a CHE or a radiant heat panel controlled by a thermostat overhead.

Open topped enclosures make it very difficult to provide the correct temperatures and humidity. It like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof. It doesn't work. Adult tortoises can usually handle large open table with some temperature and lighting help, but babies do far better in a viv where conditions can more easily be managed and maintained.

Stop buying products at the pet shop and stop listening to their care advice. As you are seeing, it leads to problems. Most of what you need can be found at the hardware store. The Arcadia UV tubes and fixtures, the CHE or RHP, and the thermostat can all be ordered online.

I now how frustrating this is. I've helped a lot of people through it over the years. As time passes, things become more clear, and the tortoise keeping experience becomes more enjoyable. Its a shame the world is in the state that it is, but we will do what we can to help. Please feel free to ask questions. Ask us to explain why we say what we say. That will help sort through the contradictory info. I'll tell you WHY not to use Pets At Home substrate and WHY the fine grade orchid bark by itself is best. You found the right place for info. Now we just have to drown out all the other sources of bad info.

 

[dtlove]

@Tom thanks for taking the time to give a detailed response, I really appreciate it.

Temps directly under the lamp are around 35ºc, far left side is around 22/25ºc. I've not had a chance to get nighttime measurements but I can check this tonight before I go to bed. Although I've been told the thermometers I' using aren't as reliable, so I'll double check these once I've dug out our reliable thermometer.

We mist the table several times a day since we started getting concerned about their eyes. I'll swap out the substrate for just orchid bark at the weekend. The sandy type was really just there to build up some depth for burrowing.

There is a spare vivarium, but we stopped using it because it was far too small for a tort and temps weren't well regulated. I'm planning on buying a large vivarium in a few months.

He's just had a soak and didn't move much, just chilled with eyes shut, same for yesterday. Previous soaks he went nuts trying to climb out. After drying he was pretty happy exploring my desk, eating from my hand and chasing some random bits I was holding. Eyes were open the whole time. As soon as he was back in the table he went into his hide.

It's just puzzling, he's eating and has some activity, but it's drastically less than his first few weeks of being with us.

 

[zolasmum]

If he is having a possible problem with dry eyes, you might like to try Viscotears - this is a gel from the pharmacist, which goes liquid once it is applied - better than drops. We have used it for our tortoise several times - it is safe and doesn't cost much, unlike the expensive stuff a vet will give you. Just a little blob is all you need. Also, I wipe Zola's eyes every morning with a cotton wool pad dampened with cold boiled water,to make sure there is no build-up of crud there. I have done this for many years, and he soon got used to it and accepted it.
Angie

 

[dtlove]

If he is having a possible problem with dry eyes, you might like to try Viscotears - this is a gel from the pharmacist, which goes liquid once it is applied - better than drops. We have used it for our tortoise several times - it is safe and doesn't cost much, unlike the expensive stuff a vet will give you. Just a little blob is all you need. Also, I wipe Zola's eyes every morning with a cotton wool pad dampened with cold boiled water,to make sure there is no build-up of crud there. I have done this for many years, and he soon got used to it and accepted it.
Angie

I will look into that, and thank you for the advice about wiping their eyes!

 

[Tom]

@Tom thanks for taking the time to give a detailed response, I really appreciate it.

Temps directly under the lamp are around 35ºc, far left side is around 22/25ºc. I've not had a chance to get nighttime measurements but I can check this tonight before I go to bed. Although I've been told the thermometers I' using aren't as reliable, so I'll double check these once I've dug out our reliable thermometer.

We mist the table several times a day since we started getting concerned about their eyes. I'll swap out the substrate for just orchid bark at the weekend. The sandy type was really just there to build up some depth for burrowing.

There is a spare vivarium, but we stopped using it because it was far too small for a tort and temps weren't well regulated. I'm planning on buying a large vivarium in a few months.

He's just had a soak and didn't move much, just chilled with eyes shut, same for yesterday. Previous soaks he went nuts trying to climb out. After drying he was pretty happy exploring my desk, eating from my hand and chasing some random bits I was holding. Eyes were open the whole time. As soon as he was back in the table he went into his hide.

It's just puzzling, he's eating and has some activity, but it's drastically less than his first few weeks of being with us.

My best guesses for the eye issue are:
1. Problem with the MVB. Some of these produce extremely high levels of UVB, while others produce zero UV after two or three months. A UV meter could answer this question.
2. Excessive dryness. This is common with small torts in open topped enclosures. Its just too dry. And heating the house in winter just dries everything out even more. MVBs also cause excessive desiccation.
3. Irritation from sand or dust. Eye irritation is one of several reason I recommend not using sand in the substrate. Dry substrate will also generate dust, which can irritate their eyes and nasal passages.
4. Cold. In theory, babies should be able to tolerate cool night temps as long as they can warm up during the day. In practice, sometimes they just don't do well with cold nights. I find babies of temperate species do best with a night temp around 20-22C. This is easy to do with a CHE and a thermostat in a closed chamber, but impossible to do in an open topped enclosure in a cold room. Once the baby is established and doing well, you can slowly dial down the thermostat over a period of days or weeks to see if the baby will tolerate cooler nights between 15 and 18 C, which would be fine for an adult that can warm up during the day.

 

[dtlove]

I’ve given things a few days now, the eye rubbing has stopped but we noticed bubbles from the nose every now and then, as well as occasional hissing when retracting their head.

Temps in the ‘cool’ side sit around 21°c, so this will be much lower at night. Also after getting a proper thermometer we found the temps under the light were actually very high (42°c). Whilst he seems to like it, I’ve come to the (possibly incorrect) conclusions that irregular temperature is causing this?

I’ll be sourcing replacement lighting today or tomorrow, and we’re still schedule for a vet check up on Tuesday.

 

[Cathie G]

I’ve given things a few days now, the eye rubbing has stopped but we noticed bubbles from the nose every now and then, as well as occasional hissing when retracting their head.

Temps in the ‘cool’ side sit around 21°c, so this will be much lower at night. Also after getting a proper thermometer we found the temps under the light were actually very high (42°c). Whilst he seems to like it, I’ve come to the (possibly incorrect) conclusions that irregular temperature is causing this?

I’ll be sourcing replacement lighting today or tomorrow, and we’re still schedule for a vet check up on Tuesday.

Hello actually hissing occasionally when retracting their head is typical. My tort does that if he's startled. So I let him see me first before I approach him. He's the boss.

 

[Tom]

Temps in the ‘cool’ side sit around 21°c, so this will be much lower at night.

Get the night temp up to 21 all over the enclosure. This will help combat the RI.

Be careful with the vet. Most of them know little to noting about tortoise care and use the same wrong info sources as the rest of the world. They often want to do things that are at best unnecessary and in some cases harmful. "Vitamin injections" are a sure sign that your vet doesn't know tortoises. Decline those and realize the person standing in front of you recommending it does not know jack about tortoises.

Also, don't let them inject Baytril for the RI. It is extremely caustic and cause burn injuries at the injection site.

Personally, I wouldn't go to a vet. There is nothing they can do, and you already know what the problem is and how to solve it.

 

[dtlove]

Thanks! Some additional heating is being delivered today to raise night temps.

The vet's were seeing has been recommended by a few keepers locally, so I'll see how we get on. We're not actually checked in for the nose thing, just a general check up on weight etc, but I will keep in mind your comments.