Bioactive water environment

[gingamann]

Long time lurker first time poster. I have created a very large palladium for my 2 tortoise hatchlings. I've had them for just over a year. 1 is a leopard tortoise and the other is a hermanns tortoise. They have lived together in a rather large environment sharing a food bowl and water bowl for the last year. They get along well.

I have recently expanded their environment and created a larger (more surface area) water section that is filtered and has a few guppies to help with the clean up.

I would like to introduce tubifex worms into the aquarium portion of the environment. Since the tortoises mainly just poop in there and the water portion is limited to maybe 2 gallons, I think they will do a good job of keeping the ammonia levels down. Between filter cleanings.

Does anyone here have any experience introducing things like brine shrimp or tubifex worms into a live environment in order to maintain a somewhat self sustaining healthy water environment. And most importantly will they have an adverse effect on the tortoises when they go into it?

To be clear, the bottom of the water portion has large rocks on the bottom, a mix of lava rock and generic rocks covering the entirety of it so they can easily walk in and out of it & also to allow for better water flow to and from the filter. The worms would more or less be in the very bottom under the rocks.

Thank you for reading thru this .

Tldr: I would like to introduce something that actively eats that poop outside of the regular filter cleaning and water changes.
Any direction specifically with tubifex worms, brine shrimp and organisms like these that would help break down the poop but not pose a health risk to the tortoises.

 

[wellington]

If you have lurked for years then you should know you are doing to very big wrongs! Housing in pairs is bad and mixing species is bad.
They do not get along, you are just missing the signs of bullying. They also require different care.
Please do the right thing by them and get them separated ASAP!

 

[gingamann]

If you have lurked for years then you should know you are doing to very big wrongs! Housing in pairs is bad and mixing species is bad.
They do not get along, you are just missing the signs of bullying. They also require different care.
Please do the right thing by them and get them separated ASAP!

I do very much appreciate your response. But please, I am asking about something very specific.

 

[wellington]

I do very much appreciate your response. But please, I am asking about something very specific.

I understand that. But do you understand the danger you are making them live in? You don't change things, one or both will not be healthy or alive for it to matter what you do with the water source/pond.

 

[gingamann]

I understand that. But do you understand the danger you are making them live in? You don't change things, one or both will not be healthy or alive for it to matter what you do with the water source/pond.

Yes, which is why since they have been hatchlings they have been housed in a very large environment practically separated.

I am preparing to duplicate the current environment. And am currently setting up the water portion.

Please, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of commonalities you can easily find on the open web. I've raised turtles my entire life, I have a 42 year old turtle. And have extensive experience maintaining aquariums.

I am asking about something specific. I see you are a well known member of this community and I would rather not let this thread get filled with unrelated topics than what the post is actually about. Do you have any working knowledge of my question?

 

[Tom]

Yes, which is why since they have been hatchlings they have been housed in a very large environment practically separated.

I am preparing to duplicate the current environment. And am currently setting up the water portion.

Please, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of commonalities you can easily find on the open web. I've raised turtles my entire life, I have a 42 year old turtle. And have extensive experience maintaining aquariums.

I am asking about something specific. I see you are a well known member of this community and I would rather not let this thread get filled with unrelated topics than what the post is actually about. Do you have any working knowledge of my question?

No one here is doing what you are proposing, so no one is going to have any experience based advice for you. We don't do it that way because tortoises foul their water sources too much and too quickly. The only practical way to keep it clean is to dump out the dirty water, clean the bowl, and refill it. In a large elaborate outdoor pond set up, you might have enough biological filtration to clean up after a small tortoise, but that is just not how the vast majority do it.

Tubifex worms and any other worm are not going to reduce the ammonia level. Quite the opposite, they will increase it. Brine shrimp won't survive in fresh water for very long.

The only organisms that remove ammonia are nitrosonomas bacteria. They convert ammonia into nitrite, which is even more toxic. Then the nitrobacter bacteria convert nitrite into nitrate. Much less toxic, and serves as plant fertilizer. The nitrite cycle. If you are familiar with aquariums, you should know all about this. Adding any sort of animal life to the aquatic environment will increase the amount of ammonia that is generated. This is not like springtails and isopods in a terrestrial environment.

You can't expect to come on to a tortoise forum, tell us you are committing two of the most unholy sins of tortoise keeping, and expect us to not say something. That's like going on to a car forum and telling them you pour water down the oil filler tube, but you only want to talk about which tires are best. Those two tortoise species have different housing requirements as juveniles. One is a tropical species and one is a temperate species. So which one is in the wrong environment?

I don't know how long of a life you've lived, but ignoring the basics of proper tortoise care is not good. I've raised tortoises for almost 40 years and got my first turtle 45 years ago. I did a lot wrong, based on the usual bad advice of the day for the first two decades or so. Then I learned better, and you can too.

 

[gingamann]

No one here is doing what you are proposing, so no one is going to have any experience based advice for you. We don't do it that way because tortoises foul their water sources too much and too quickly. The only practical way to keep it clean is to dump out the dirty water, clean the bowl, and refill it. In a large elaborate outdoor pond set up, you might have enough biological filtration to clean up after a small tortoise, but that is just not how the vast majority do it.

Tubifex worms and any other worm are not going to reduce the ammonia level. Quite the opposite, they will increase it. Brine shrimp won't survive in fresh water for very long.

The only organisms that remove ammonia are nitrosonomas bacteria. They convert ammonia into nitrite, which is even more toxic. Then the nitrobacter bacteria convert nitrite into nitrate. Much less toxic, and serves as plant fertilizer. The nitrite cycle. If you are familiar with aquariums, you should know all about this. Adding any sort of animal life to the aquatic environment will increase the amount of ammonia that is generated. This is not like springtails and isopods in a terrestrial environment.

You can't expect to come on to a tortoise forum, tell us you are committing two of the most unholy sins of tortoise keeping, and expect us to not say something. That's like going on to a car forum and telling them you pour water down the oil filler tube, but you only want to talk about which tires are best. Those two tortoise species have different housing requirements as juveniles. One is a tropical species and one is a temperate species. So which one is in the wrong environment?

I don't know how long of a life you've lived, but ignoring the basics of proper tortoise care is not good. I've raised tortoises for almost 40 years and got my first turtle 45 years ago. I did a lot wrong, based on the usual bad advice of the day for the first two decades or so. Then I learned better, and you can too.

No one here is doing what you are proposing, so no one is going to have any experience based advice for you. We don't do it that way because tortoises foul their water sources too much and too quickly. The only practical way to keep it clean is to dump out the dirty water, clean the bowl, and refill it. In a large elaborate outdoor pond set up, you might have enough biological filtration to clean up after a small tortoise, but that is just not how the vast majority do it.

Tubifex worms and any other worm are not going to reduce the ammonia level. Quite the opposite, they will increase it. Brine shrimp won't survive in fresh water for very long.

The only organisms that remove ammonia are nitrosonomas bacteria. They convert ammonia into nitrite, which is even more toxic. Then the nitrobacter bacteria convert nitrite into nitrate. Much less toxic, and serves as plant fertilizer. The nitrite cycle. If you are familiar with aquariums, you should know all about this. Adding any sort of animal life to the aquatic environment will increase the amount of ammonia that is generated. This is not like springtails and isopods in a terrestrial environment.

You can't expect to come on to a tortoise forum, tell us you are committing two of the most unholy sins of tortoise keeping, and expect us to not say something. That's like going on to a car forum and telling them you pour water down the oil filler tube, but you only want to talk about which tires are best. Those two tortoise species have different housing requirements as juveniles. One is a tropical species and one is a temperate species. So which one is in the wrong environment?

I don't know how long of a life you've lived, but ignoring the basics of proper tortoise care is not good. I've raised tortoises for almost 40 years and got my first turtle 45 years ago. I did a lot wrong, based on the usual bad advice of the day for the first two decades or so. Then I learned better, and you can too.

I am not planning on keeping them in the same environment. As I noted before I got them as hatchlings and they have been in a large environment for about a year. I was not and am not intending them to stay in the same environment. They get along well, as in they don't really interact with each other. They don't really need to and they eat from either side of the food bowl. I recently expanded their environment as they have grown a little and i don't want them to not have the same autonomy while I work on duplicating the current environment so I can separate them. Before I invest in a whole new environment I am working on the water portion of it.

The basking area center is about 97 degrees and the cool area is about 75. the over all ambient / air temperature in the tank at night doesn't drop below 72 generally it is at 75 at night. There is a thermostat controlled heating pad under the enclosure closer to the basking area but not directly under it. There is about 4 inches deep of substrate, a mix of coco fiber and terrarium soil for the hermanns to borrow around in freely through the enclosure with a topping of cypress chips on top. The humidity floats between 40 to 60 percent throughout the day and night. There are multiple hides for both in the basking area and in the cool area. The substrate is regularly hosed down to maintain the humidity and there is a colony springtails, isopods and potato bugs to help keep substrate under control. It gets spot cleaned daily and it gets fully cleaned out every 2-3 months or so and start new with cultures from the old.

The get fed a mix of rainbow chard, dandelion red and green, Romain, sassafras, clover and alfalfa. They plow thru it 2 times a day. They get bathed every 2 to 3 days for about 30 minutes.

From all the research that I've done the above seems about right for both of them. I am always looking to learn more.

As I've stated before. I am planning on duplicating the current environments. Currently I am working on a bioactive water area.

I have a filtration system. A setup including a canister and as well an in water power head with the proper media to balance ammonia levels. I said before specifically I am looking for things that like to eat poop to introduce to it. I am not finding a direct answer regarding the worms like tubifex or black or things like or daphnia with regards to tortoises and potential health risks.

I am 44 years old. I didn't know that this was a requirement for help. My dad got me a turtle when I was 2. I have been raising that turtle my whole life. Her name is Vincent. And is very happy in a 350 gallon tank.

I am coming to a tortoise forum with a very specific question of what type of aquatic worms are safe around tortoises.

So I guess, I'm not going to get a direct answer about if tubifex worms or daphnia or black worms pose a health risk to tortoises? It just seems like, "hey lemme tell you all the things you are doing wrong without much more context than a general overview of what's going on" rather than help with the very specific question that I asked multiple times at this point. Yes, your analogy of a mechanic is quite accurate.

Thank you.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Ignoring the other topics. I'll try to help you in your initial question...
No. I've tried several times to incorporate a water feature that is semi permanent and filtered both with a bog filter. Biologically filtered by plants and with a mechanical filter with removable substrate and all I've ever gotten was a big cesspool of bacteria.
It's been very discouraging.
I am currently attempting this on a larger scale. With a total of about 150 to 250 gallons of water through a pebble and plant bog stream fed from underground pipes from a bio filter and a 500 gph pump and a shallow pool for a single Redfoot.
I think (THINK) that the key is volume. Lots of water. Lots of filtration and less poop per the gallon. Plants and a filter media that can trap solids will help tremendously.
I've never found an aquatic "scavenger"that removed poop that didn't then wreak havoc with its own poop.
Be prepared to just sweep out the pool and refill it with fresh water.
And if you find something that works, please share it. Because I'm just about beat at this point. I'm attempting this for the last time.
(Maybe. Probably)

 

[gingamann]

No one here is doing what you are proposing, so no one is going to have any experience based advice for you. We don't do it that way because tortoises foul their water sources too much and too quickly. The only practical way to keep it clean is to dump out the dirty water, clean the bowl, and refill it. In a large elaborate outdoor pond set up, you might have enough biological filtration to clean up after a small tortoise, but that is just not how the vast majority do it.

Tubifex worms and any other worm are not going to reduce the ammonia level. Quite the opposite, they will increase it. Brine shrimp won't survive in fresh water for very long.

The only organisms that remove ammonia are nitrosonomas bacteria. They convert ammonia into nitrite, which is even more toxic. Then the nitrobacter bacteria convert nitrite into nitrate. Much less toxic, and serves as plant fertilizer. The nitrite cycle. If you are familiar with aquariums, you should know all about this. Adding any sort of animal life to the aquatic environment will increase the amount of ammonia that is generated. This is not like springtails and isopods in a terrestrial environment.

You can't expect to come on to a tortoise forum, tell us you are committing two of the most unholy sins of tortoise keeping, and expect us to not say something. That's like going on to a car forum and telling them you pour water down the oil filler tube, but you only want to talk about which tires are best. Those two tortoise species have different housing requirements as juveniles. One is a tropical species and one is a temperate species. So which one is in the wrong environment?

I don't know how long of a life you've lived, but ignoring the basics of proper tortoise care is not good. I've raised tortoises for almost 40 years and got my first turtle 45 years ago. I did a lot wrong, based on the usual bad advice of the day for the first two decades or so. Then I learned better, and you can too.

No one here is doing what you are proposing, so no one is going to have any experience based advice for you. We don't do it that way because tortoises foul their water sources too much and too quickly. The only practical way to keep it clean is to dump out the dirty water, clean the bowl, and refill it. In a large elaborate outdoor pond set up, you might have enough biological filtration to clean up after a small tortoise, but that is just not how the vast majority do it.

Tubifex worms and any other worm are not going to reduce the ammonia level. Quite the opposite, they will increase it. Brine shrimp won't survive in fresh water for very long.

The only organisms that remove ammonia are nitrosonomas bacteria. They convert ammonia into nitrite, which is even more toxic. Then the nitrobacter bacteria convert nitrite into nitrate. Much less toxic, and serves as plant fertilizer. The nitrite cycle. If you are familiar with aquariums, you should know all about this. Adding any sort of animal life to the aquatic environment will increase the amount of ammonia that is generated. This is not like springtails and isopods in a terrestrial environment.

You can't expect to come on to a tortoise forum, tell us you are committing two of the most unholy sins of tortoise keeping, and expect us to not say something. That's like going on to a car forum and telling them you pour water down the oil filler tube, but you only want to talk about which tires are best. Those two tortoise species have different housing requirements as juveniles. One is a tropical species and one is a temperate species. So which one is in the wrong environment?

I don't know how long of a life you've lived, but ignoring the basics of proper tortoise care is not good. I've raised tortoises for almost 40 years and got my first turtle 45 years ago. I did a lot wrong, based on the usual bad advice of the day for the first two decades or so. Then I learned better, and you can too.

I am not planning on keeping them in the same environment. As I noted before I got them as hatchlings and they have been in a large environment for about a year. I was not and am not intending them to stay in the same environment. They get along well, as in they don't really interact with each other. They don't really need to and they eat from either side of the food bowl. I recently expanded their environment as they have grown a little and i don't want them to not have the same autonomy while I work on duplicating the current environment so I can separate them. Before I invest in a whole new environment I am working on the water portion of it.

The basking area center is about 97 degrees and the cool area is about 75. the over all ambient / air temperature in the tank at night doesn't drop below 72 generally it is at 75 at night. There is a thermostat controlled heating pad under the enclosure closer to the basking area but not directly under it. There is about 4 inches deep of substrate, a mix of coco fiber and terrarium soil for the hermanns to borrow around in freely through the enclosure with a topping of cypress chips on top. The humidity floats between 40 to 60 percent throughout the day and night. There are multiple hides for both in the basking area and in the cool area. The substrate is regularly hosed down to maintain the humidity and there is a colony springtails, isopods and potato bugs to help keep substrate under control. It gets spot cleaned daily and it gets fully cleaned out every 2-3 months or so and start new with cultures from the old.

The get fed a mix of rainbow chard, dandelion red and green, Romain, sassafras, clover and alfalfa. They plow thru it 2 times a day. They get bathed every 2 to 3 days for about 30 minutes.

From all the research that I've done the above seems about right for both of them. I am always looking to learn more.

As I've stated before. I am planning on duplicating the current environments. Currently I am working on a bioactive water area.

I have a filtration system. A setup including a canister and as well an in water power head with the proper media to balance ammonia levels. I said before specifically I am looking for things that like to eat poop to introduce to it. I am not finding a direct answer regarding the worms like tubifex or black or things like or daphnia with regards to tortoises and potential health risks.

I am 44 years old. I didn't know that this was a requirement for help. My dad got me a turtle when I was 2. I have been raising that turtle my whole life. Her name is Vincent. And is very happy in a 350 gallon tank.

I am coming to a tortoise forum with a very specific question of what type of aquatic worms are safe around tortoises.

So I guess, I'm not going to get a direct answer about if tubifex worms or daphnia or black worms pose a health risk to tortoises? It just seems like, "hey lemme tell you all the things you are doing wrong without much more context than a general overview of what's going" rather than help with the very specific question that I asked multiple times at this point. Yes, your analogy of a mechanic is quite accurate

Thank you.

Ignoring the other topics. I'll try to help you in your initial question...
No. I've tried several times to incorporate a water feature that is semi permanent and filtered both with a bog filter. Biologically filtered by plants and with a mechanical filter with removable substrate and all I've ever gotten was a big cesspool of bacteria.
It's been very discouraging.
I am currently attempting this on a larger scale. With a total of about 150 to 250 gallons of water through a pebble and plant bog stream fed from underground pipes from a bio filter and a 500 gph pump and a shallow pool for a single Redfoot.
I think (THINK) that the key is volume. Lots of water. Lots of filtration and less poop per the gallon. Plants and a filter media that can trap solids will help tremendously.
I've never found an aquatic "scavenger"that removed poop that didn't then wreak havoc with its own poop.
Be prepared to just sweep out the pool and refill it with fresh water.
And if you find something that works, please share it. Because I'm just about beat at this point. I'm attempting this for the last time.
(Maybe. Probably)

Gotcha, I've not had much luck with self sustaining ecospheres. As you put it, a cesspool of bacteria is inevitable. I think the answer lies in fungi that completes for the same resources. I just don't know enough about bacteria and fungi to go down that rabbit hole anytime soon.. ha. What is intriguing to me though is a water cycle that would be similar to the once a month or so that I go thru with my cooter.

Fully intending on cycling the whole thing out every so often.. I'm just looking to move that cycle to like a monthly one.

My fear is that if those types of worms could become parasitic to tortoises. I just don't know about it.