Boggin It!

ColleenT

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I was advised by a wildlife rehabber to not hibernate my gulf coasts here in north east ohio. Though I know others in similar climates do it.

My vet advised me not to hibernate Ilene again( the week before she died) she was a gulf coast. But my three-toeds seem to come thru it fine. Not sure why that is..
 

Eric Phillips

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I was advised by a wildlife rehabber to not hibernate my gulf coasts here in north east ohio. Though I know others in similar climates do it.

I’ve heard the same thing be said about 3 toeds in our area....
 

Yvonne G

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I have gulf coasts and Floridas and they both hibernate just fine here. Maybe my winters are milder than yours in PA?
 

mark1

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I've often seen the northernmost range of U.S. turtle species matches very closely plant hardiness zone maps , some amazingly similar .......... three toed box turtle northernmost range in Missouri is 6a , they are not found in the northernmost part of Missouri which is 5b ............ here in northern ohio the zone is 6a with a few spots of 5b ,makes sense they'd do well here ........ gulf coast box turtles appear to me to have a northernmost range of 8b , that's a big difference in extreme low temps ............ most flavomarginata come from a latitude around 30 north , don't know the temperatures in that part of china , but i'd imagine northern florida might very well be similar , the proximity to and ocean temperatures appear similar ......... I keep p. manni outside here from may thru October , I believe their natural range is about a latitude of 10 north .... they just don't survive these temps they thrive , so I guess you never know until you try it ........... you can pretty much iust watch the behavior and tell if they know what they're doing .......
 

Eric Phillips

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I've often seen the northernmost range of U.S. turtle species matches very closely plant hardiness zone maps , some amazingly similar .......... three toed box turtle northernmost range in Missouri is 6a , they are not found in the northernmost part of Missouri which is 5b ............ here in northern ohio the zone is 6a with a few spots of 5b ,makes sense they'd do well here ........ gulf coast box turtles appear to me to have a northernmost range of 8b , that's a big difference in extreme low temps ............ most flavomarginata come from a latitude around 30 north , don't know the temperatures in that part of china , but i'd imagine northern florida might very well be similar , the proximity to and ocean temperatures appear similar ......... I keep p. manni outside here from may thru October , I believe their natural range is about a latitude of 10 north .... they just don't survive these temps they thrive , so I guess you never know until you try it ........... you can pretty much iust watch the behavior and tell if they know what they're doing .......

Here is a snipit from a conversation I had with Chris awhile back on Panhandle Gulfs before I was looking to start up a group. Makes you wonder if they are closer to Easterns in the gene pull.

Hi Eric,

I do hibernate my panhandles outside. They are very aquatic, some even spend the winter in their pond while others dig down like our easterns do.

The panhandle does get quite cold at times and in combination with their robust structure and hardiness, they fare well even in frigid conditions. It's all about the habitat and making sure they have enough options to find what they need. Hope this helps.
 

mark1

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i have a little female gulf coast in with the easterns , i rescued her about 4-5 yrs ago , she would go in the water when it got cold , i'd take her and put her in the leaf pile , she'd end up back in the water , so i'd bring her in ...... i have heard of easterns hibernating underwater , so i did figure that was what she was trying to do ...... with our winters being so long and cold i didn't want to risk it ..... there were times i found her in the water where she was so torpid she appeared dead ...... last winter she disappeared into the leaf pile so i left her out , she was the first to reappear this spring , actually a bit to early , when it got cold again she got in a clump of grass , i'd put her back in the leaf pile and she'd stay until another nice day ..... we had a pretty cold winter , at one point we had 15 straight days of single digit temperatures , the ground froze pretty deep , she did do fine ........
 

lisa127

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Here in north east ohio the weather is much different than more southern parts of the state. Most winters we have stretches of below 0 windchill so when I say cold I'm not talking 30 degrees. So I'm just very leery of hibernating gulf coasts in this area.
 

lisa127

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I’ve heard the same thing be said about 3 toeds in our area....
Really? Never heard that. What area of ohio are you in? Our weather here in the snowbelt of ohio is pretty severe and frigid.
 

mark1

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So I'm just very leery of hibernating gulf coasts in this area.

a lot of the snowbelt in northeast ohio is zone 5b , any 6a around here is the cold end of that classification ...... i believe new jersey is 7b , 7a and 6b , i think the warm end of 6b ....... Colleen hibernated her gulf coast successfully one year and unsuccessfully the 2nd year ......... i think hibernating them in 6a, 5b would be pushing it .......... the turtles that naturally live by me can withstand being frozen ...........
 

Becca267

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Doesn't the snow help to insulate the ground from temperature swings? Not keeping it warmer per say, but keeping it from freezing and thawing all the time.
 

mark1

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yes it does , the snowbelt ground temperatures are always a few degrees warmer than mine , west of Cleveland and south of I-480 ……. we get the single digits , zero , and negative temps with bare ground …….. the bare ground by me in the beginning of January is around 21 degrees on average at4 …... under a pile of leaves I've seen it get down to 26 degrees …...
 

lisa127

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yes it does , the snowbelt ground temperatures are always a few degrees warmer than mine , west of Cleveland and south of I-480 ……. we get the single digits , zero , and negative temps with bare ground …….. the bare ground by me in the beginning of January is around 21 degrees on average at4 …... under a pile of leaves I've seen it get down to 26 degrees …...
I' in what is considered the secondary snow belt. What zone would that be?
 

mark1

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plant-hardiness-zone-mapjpg-e4cd86d671bdb9b1.jpg
 

Eric Phillips

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I think we have to dive alittle deeper than just hardiness zones. The Gulf Coast Box Turtle, especially the Florida Panhandle, is a morphological anomaly. While its the closest and purest form to Terrapene Carolina Putnami, its also an intergrade overlapping between t.c. triungis, t.c. carolina, and t.c. bauri. Both triungis and carolina handle zones 5b, 6a, and 6b just fine. From my understanding this is why Gulf Coasts have been considered to be such a "hardy box turtle". While I don't dispute the dangers of brumation, I am also under the realization if you do not provide an area to successfully brumate them then there will be an increased risk for your box turtle. Ornates are considered a not so hardy box turtle and yet they handle zones 4a, 4b, 5a, and 5b in Wisconsin.
 

mark1

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ornate box turtles do live in zone 4 , they dig down on average like 18-30 inches , have been known to dig down 5 feet , those depths were determined with implanted temperature dataloggers , matching them to temperature probes inserted in the ground in proximity to where the turtles were hibernating …….easterns ,TCC, don't dig more than 3-5 inches , I've seen studies of that , and it matches what I've seen ……. they have evolved to be freeze tolerant , there is no way they don't freeze during our bad winters …our frost line is like 32" , I don't believe that depth , I buried a water line 18 inches , it does run right under their pen , and it has frozen in the most severe winters very few times , due to the absence of snow cover , so I do know for a fact my ground can and does freeze 18 inches down in a severe winter here ……. hibernating in the water is an excellent strategy , but then they have to survive hypoxia , some turtles have adapted to that better than others …………. I believe I have seen something written on the genetic aspect of freeze and hypoxia tolerances in turtles , some are more tolerant than others ……. if you look at the extremes it is pretty obviously a genetic/physiological adaptation …….. no doubt gulf coast box turtles experience , and need to survive freezing temperatures naturally , I don't believe they experience frozen ground naturally , especially sub freezing ground and not for the length of time here …….. you wrote of intergrades , I do believe my "gulf coast" is just that , she did hibernate successfully here last year , I left her out until late November for like 4yrs until she actually did what the easterns do here , previous years she would be out in the open , or submerged in a tub of water , and it would be snowing …….. I have never , and doubt I ever will lose a turtle to hibernation , because they are adapted to it and we do help them …we don't let obviously unwell ones hibernate , we give them optimum spots to hibernate , they are in optimum condition going in , if they come out to soon , they're never to far off to go back in a great spot , or we put them back , if they're real young/small i bring them in and get them hydrated and eating until the weather breaks … I actually did lose one once , she got into the manni pen and locked in a night/cold weather box I had in there , she was unable to dig in , no leaf cover and she froze to death ……. i'm sure if your gulf coast can live outside year round you will safely figure it out , and i'm looking forward to seeing the result ………I would never have left mine out except for seeing Colleen, PA, do it , I believe Terryo , NY,, and Chris NJ …….
 

AJK Aquaria

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Looks incredible.

Aquatic plants make such a huge difference. So expensive here, though. If I knew a spot where I could pull some from legally, I'd do it in a heart beat.
 

Eric Phillips

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Looks incredible.

Aquatic plants make such a huge difference. So expensive here, though. If I knew a spot where I could pull some from legally, I'd do it in a heart beat.

Thanks Adam...Frogbit, water hyacinth, water lettuce, etc. multiply so fast I just buy 1 plant of each in spring when available and by July I am trying to unload some because the ponds are full. Lucky for me I have a feed store a block away from my house that sells them cheap.
 

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