Cedar fence picket

[Carl StarTortoise]

Hi!

I’m planning to build an outdoor tortoise habitat and was curious if it’s safe to use cedar fence picket as the perimeter of the enclosure? It’s for baby radiated tortoises so it doesn’t need to be too strong.

Other options would be non pressure treated cedar 2”x8”boards, landscaping bricks, 1/2” PVC sheets cut to 8’ x 1’ pieces. The fencing would be by far the cheapest but I don’t want to use if not safe for my babies. Plan to make it 12’x8’ (they’re only 2-3” and will only be outside for 2-3 hours during days 80+).

-Colin

 

[Tom]

Hi!

I’m planning to build an outdoor tortoise habitat and was curious if it’s safe to use cedar fence picket as the perimeter of the enclosure? It’s for baby radiated tortoises so it doesn’t need to be too strong.

Other options would be non pressure treated cedar 2”x8”boards, landscaping bricks, 1/2” PVC sheets cut to 8’ x 1’ pieces. The fencing would be by far the cheapest but I don’t want to use if not safe for my babies. Plan to make it 12’x8’ (they’re only 2-3” and will only be outside for 2-3 hours during days 80+).

-Colin

Cedar emits toxic fumes. This is why bugs leave it alone.

There is plenty of ventilation in an open outdoor enclosure, so the fumes can dissipate, but personally, I would rather use something else and not have my tortoises exposed to toxic fumes, dissipated or not.

I use slumpstone blocks, three blocks high to contain my adult radiata. Off set the center row with a half block to make it more sturdy.

I've never used PVC sheeting outdoors, but That seems like a good option. If you go that route, will you please keep us posted about good and bad points and how long it holds up in the weather? This is a material that I intend to work with more often going forward.

 

[TammyJ]

I think baby tortoises should not be kept outdoors anyway? If I had baby radiateds, you bet they would be inside till they were a good size. Are you planning to cover the enclosure with mesh wire? What predators would possibly be around?

 

[TammyJ]

Oh, sorry. Just saw you only plan to put them out for a couple of hours each day. Still wonder about predators.

 

[Carl StarTortoise]

Cedar emits toxic fumes. This is why bugs leave it alone.

There is plenty of ventilation in an open outdoor enclosure, so the fumes can dissipate, but personally, I would rather use something else and not have my tortoises exposed to toxic fumes, dissipated or not.

I use slumpstone blocks, three blocks high to contain my adult radiata. Off set the center row with a half block to make it more sturdy.

I've never used PVC sheeting outdoors, but That seems like a good option. If you go that route, will you please keep us posted about good and bad points and how long it holds up in the weather? This is a material that I intend to work with more often going forward.

oof, I didn't know cedar was toxic. I was double checking on using the picket fence because it is pressure treated. So glad I asked before using. Thanks so much, Tom! You are always so hopefully. I owe you many beers.

Can I ask how big is your enclosure for your adult radiata is (or atleast how big you'd recommed for my 4 when adult)? We only have about 20x20 to work with in our condo but we will definitely be in a house within the next couple years and would to give them plenty of space to roam.

I'm going to do some figuring today and decide on either the PVC or slumpstone and will report back. It is supposed to get in the 80s next week so I'm hoping to start and complete the project this weekend so they can have some fun in the sun next week. Thanks again!

 

[Tom]

oof, I didn't know cedar was toxic. I was double checking on using the picket fence because it is pressure treated. So glad I asked before using. Thanks so much, Tom! You are always so hopefully. I owe you many beers.

Can I ask how big is your enclosure for your adult radiata is (or atleast how big you'd recommed for my 4 when adult)? We only have about 20x20 to work with in our condo but we will definitely be in a house within the next couple years and would to give them plenty of space to roam.

I'm going to do some figuring today and decide on either the PVC or slumpstone and will report back. It is supposed to get in the 80s next week so I'm hoping to start and complete the project this weekend so they can have some fun in the sun next week. Thanks again!

I use pressure treated lumber for some enclosures, and I don't see any trouble with it since the tortoises aren't chewing on it or mouthing it at all.

I like to make outdoor enclosures as large as possible. Your tortoises are still small, but I would use as much of the 20x20 as possible for them.

I don't know what size my adult pen is because it is very oddly shaped with corridors connecting several open spaces. I would estimate it at around 1000 square feet. They use every inch of it all year long.

 

[Carl StarTortoise]

Oh, sorry. Just saw you only plan to put them out for a couple of hours each day. Still wonder about predators.

Thanks for your concern for my babies! I am going to make a mesh top so birds and opossums can't get them. I think the dogs keep predators from coming to close to us (the habitat will be right up against the back of our condo) but they are so small predator protection must be installed.

 

[Carl StarTortoise]

I use pressure treated lumber for some enclosures, and I don't see any trouble with it since the tortoises aren't chewing on it or mouthing it at all.

I like to make outdoor enclosures as large as possible. Your tortoises are still small, but I would use as much of the 20x20 as possible for them.

I don't know what size my adult pen is because it is very oddly shaped with corridors connecting several open spaces. I would estimate it at around 1000 square feet. They use every inch of it all year long.

Pressure treated 2'x8's would be way cheaper than the other options, but I feel like any wood other than cedar would rot rather quickly out in the elements? If this isn't your experience I may go that route since it won't need to last more than a year or so.

Thank you, I will utilize all of the "yard" we have. There is a picket fence between us an our neighbors and I was planning to butt the walls of the enclosure up to that. Now I am worried about fumes from the fence since it is so close. How far would you recommend moving the enclosure out from the fence to avoid the fumes?

Our "yard" is more like a half wood half concrete deck, no grass or anything. I am planning to line the bottom of the enclosure with plastic, put a few inches of coco coir in there, and then top of with a couple of inches of orchid bark (it is just too expensive to fill completely with orchid bark). Does that sound okay? I will also do some landscaping with tortoise safe plants, hide box, terra cotta water dishes, etc.

And we have been planning to move for awhile and will be sure to move in time to provide these guys more room as they grow. Constructing a 1000 sq ft habitat for them will be the first thing we do in our in new home and we will make sure to find a place that accommodate this (I'll need a chunk of land for my star tortoise too). Didn't want y'all to think I would neglect my babies and not give them enough space.

 

[TammyJ]

It's not just fumes from cedar that may be harmful, but any water that may collect in a dip in the earth after rain, said water having soaked the cedar wood and is now providing a toxic pond for your tortoises. I had a baby ball python once that had a water dish, into which a piece of cedar wood accidentally ended up. He drank this toxic water and became extremely ill, with what looked like neurological damage.

 

[Carl StarTortoise]

It's not just fumes from cedar that may be harmful, but any water that may collect in a dip in the earth after rain, said water having soaked the cedar wood and is now providing a toxic pond for your tortoises. I had a baby ball python once that had a water dish, into which a piece of cedar wood accidentally ended up. He drank this toxic water and became extremely ill, with what looked like neurological damage.

Thank you for the heads up, and I am sorry to hear about your snake. I will move the enclosure a foot or so away from the fence and make an impermeable barrier between the fence and enclosure so stormwater from the fence will not make it to the enclosure. Does that sound safe?

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm a lumber hoarder. And all my tortoise yards were built using re-purposed lumber. A lot of what I have stored in my "wood yard" is redwood. So there's a lot of redwood fencing around my tortoise yards. In my opinion, if cedar is what you have go for it! The tortoise isn't going to sit by the fence breathing in the fumes from the cedar oil. It's probably kiln dried lumber anyway, and not offensive oils to give off gasses.

 

[Tom]

Pressure treated 2'x8's would be way cheaper than the other options, but I feel like any wood other than cedar would rot rather quickly out in the elements? If this isn't your experience I may go that route since it won't need to last more than a year or so.

I live in a very dry climate and even regular untreated lumber doesn't rot here. Pressure treated lumber should last for several years in your climate, and I think it is safe to use for outdoor enclosures.

How far would you recommend moving the enclosure out from the fence to avoid the fumes?

Outdoors, a few inches is probably enough. You might want to leave 2 or 3 feet as a walk way for yourself.

Our "yard" is more like a half wood half concrete deck, no grass or anything. I am planning to line the bottom of the enclosure with plastic, put a few inches of coco coir in there, and then top of with a couple of inches of orchid bark (it is just too expensive to fill completely with orchid bark). Does that sound okay? I will also do some landscaping with tortoise safe plants, hide box, terra cotta water dishes, etc.

I prefer to use the ground outside, but your idea sounds like it will be fine until you are able to move into a place with a big yard. You might be able to use rubber horse stall mats instead of plastic under your substrate. Be sure to use lots of high fiber weeds and leaves in their diet, or supplement grocery store greens with high fiber amendments to reduce the likelihood of substrate and rock eating outdoors.

Didn't want y'all to think I would neglect my babies and not give them enough space.

The thought never entered my mind!

 

[Carl StarTortoise]

I'm a lumber hoarder. And all my tortoise yards were built using re-purposed lumber. A lot of what I have stored in my "wood yard" is redwood. So there's a lot of redwood fencing around my tortoise yards. In my opinion, if cedar is what you have go for it! The tortoise isn't going to sit by the fence breathing in the fumes from the cedar oil. It's probably kiln dried lumber anyway, and not offensive oils to give off gasses.

Thanks for the reply! I am still nervous enough not to use cedar or to butt up my enclosure next to the cedar fence, but I won't be too worrisome with my enclosure being semi close to the fence with a barrier between. I had improperly cared for tortoises in the passed before I found this wealth of knowledge (a lot of that is thanks to @Tom ) and want to make sure I am as cautious as possible and not cut any corners.

 

[Tom]

...and want to make sure I am as cautious as possible and not cut any corners.

We could talk for hours about this concept...

Many of us work alone and seldom spend time at the facilities of other tortoise keepers. We tend to get into a routine of what works for us and when we achieve success we (well at least I...) tend to start ruling out other ways of doing things and at least to some degree, close our minds. Then, one day, I'll go to someone else's tortoise compound and see all the things they are doing differently than me, things that work great, and the wheels in my head start turning again. I have learned SOOOOOO much from other tortoise keepers and things that they have figured out on their own. I try to share that here, and I try to keep an open mind about it all. Just as I learn new techniques that work, I also see some techniques that don't work and lead to poor results. Then there are the things that I KNOW with 100% certainty because of decades of first hand experience, while other things, like redfoot care or how to raise Egyptian tortoises, are more speculation on my part based on experience with other similar species and similar housing methods.

What is my point? In time, I think we all learn what elements of care and housing are critically important, and what elements allow a large margin of error where a variety of differing methods can work. I am leery of the fumes from cedar because I have seen small animals die on cedar bedding that should not have been used. We line closets and chests with cedar to keep moths and insects from destroying our clothes. But then you have someone like Yvonne, with decades of experience, who has used cedar boards outside and it caused no problems for her tortoises.

I recently had someone asking about how long a tortoise could brumate for and is it a problem to go too long. I've never pushed that limit to see where problems would start happening, so I don't really know the answer to that question. I can look to how some Russian tortoises survive with only 6 weeks of activity in spring, and then another six weeks of activity in fall, with the entire rest of every year spent inactive either brumating or aestivating. I had Argentine tegus living outside with deep well protected burrows that would go down mid September and not comeback up until mid march every year, regardless of the weather. I "know" that temperate species "should" brumate, but I have never tested the specific limits of what is safe and what is deadly. Along those lines, I "know" that a hamster will die in a small glass tank with cedar shavings, but Yvonne "knows" that using weathered cedar fence boards outside did not cause her any problems. This, as I see it, is a primary benefit of a forum like this. We all get to learn from each others trials and errors.

 

[pawsplus]

Pressure treated 2'x8's would be way cheaper than the other options, but I feel like any wood other than cedar would rot rather quickly out in the elements? If this isn't your experience I may go that route since it won't need to last more than a year or so.

Pressure-treated wood is pretty hardy! The picket fence at my farm (dogs' yard, separated from tortoise yard) was still going strong when I moved, 19 years after I installed the fence. It probably needs to be replaced for aesthetic reasons, but there was nothing wrong with it strength-wise!

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I've been using treated PINE FENCE PICKETS to construct all of my outdoors tortoise enclosures without giving them a second thought. (PINE not CEDAR)
They are inexpensive and hold up great to the elements. Lasting over 10 years for the most part.
I also like the dimensions. When used sideways, they're 6 feet long. If I screw them onto 2x4 uprights. I can make a 6, 12 or 18 foot long wall with no cutting. Except for the uprights. And they're roughly 6" wide. So four of them makes for a 24" height. Near perfect for most non giant tortoises.
I can build up a new enclosure in an hour or two. Or repair or modify one with just a screw gun and some outdoor deck screws.
I love that part.
So, while I can't vouch for CEDAR fence pickets, I CAN SAY that treated PINE is a great choice.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Ogh my gosh…..just so many things just not true in many of these posts (ok, except ZeroPilot) regarding cedar posts, and pressure treated wood - especially for outdoor enclosures.

The pressure treating “process” from years ago is no longer used. All of those nasty harsh chemicals like arsenic were banned many years ago.

Cedar picket fence posts that are cheap & readily available at places like Lowes & HomeDepot are pretty much kiln dried to the max. Any kind of fumes they could possibly emit outside will be whisked away.

Cedar is one of the types of woods that is highly recommended for the construction of bird houses - resists weather, no harm to baby chicks.

Some info -
In the early 2000’s the method for manufacturing pressure treated wood changed and CCA was no longer permitted. They now use ACQ (Alkaline Copper Quat (Quaternary ammonia)). These products are not known to have toxicity issues or to leach into soils. Most people don’t know these changes were made and still think of pressure treated wood as potentially toxic. It has always been a personal choice to use or not use pressure treated wood, but there is significantly less risk now with the change in production methods. Hemlock or cedar can be used as an alternative to pressure treated lumber in raised bed or compost bin construction.
Source - https://extension.umaine.edu/gardening/2022/01/28/is-pressure-treated-wood-safe/

 

[Carl StarTortoise]

Thank you all for your input! This info makes me even more indecisive on what to use for the enclosure. ha.
Another question, would it be okay to use the back of our condo (it is brick) as one of the borders? I am considering bricks or concrete for the entire border so didn't think there would be an issue, but I wanted to double check with the experts first.

 

[Tom]

Another question, would it be okay to use the back of our condo (it is brick) as one of the borders?

Yes. I use a giant slumpstone wall as one of the borders of some of my enclosures.

 

[Carl StarTortoise]

Yes. I use a giant slumpstone wall as one of the borders of some of my enclosures.

Thanks!