Cherry Head Stance?

[KTyne]

Hey guys

So from what I understand a healthy tortoise should have a "table" stance where they are able to lift their whole selves up off the ground.

I was wondering if it's the same with Red Foots?

I've noticed my girl doesn't really use her back legs to lift herself up at all, she more so just uses her back legs to push herself forwards? She very rarely brings her back legs fully up underneath her where they should be, and it's worrying me.

I've heard that this can be from calcium deficiency (MBD), which it could be since I've only had her 3 months now. But I've also been told that if I've been giving her proper supplements and feeding her a good, varied diet that she should be at least partially recovered by now in being able to walk normally.

Any advice would be great, I'm thinking a vet visit may be in order if you guys think that this really is an issue.

This is what she does most of the time... she "walks" by just bringing her legs up and pushing instead of trying to lift herself.

 

[DutchieAmanda]

My redfoot does stand on his feet to walk around


Only when he is sitting relaxed this legs are stretched to the back


I'm sorry I can't help you with the reasons why your redfoot doesn't use his back legs... Good luck!

 

[DutchieAmanda]

I just saw this thread, maybe the suggestions in this thread can be helpfull?
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/My-tortoise-wont-use-her-back-legs!--Help!.112595/

 

[KTyne]

Thanks but it wouldn't be that, as she still uses her legs she just doesn't push herself up with them, she just pushes herself forwards. Also they aren't swollen.

 

[cdmay]

What substrate are you keeping her on? Sometimes a slick surface makes it difficult for them to get good footing on.
If you don't do so already, try keeping her on something that gives her good traction...like mulch or cypress bark chips and so on.

 

[KTyne]

What substrate are you keeping her on? Sometimes a slick surface makes it difficult for them to get good footing on.
If you don't do so already, try keeping her on something that gives her good traction...like mulch or cypress bark chips and so on.

She is on peat moss that after I re-wet it I pack it down so it's a hard enough surface for her to walk on. And in her previous home she was on wood chips, so I don't think it's an issue of not having a firm enough surface to walk on. :\ She does this when you put her on the floor and such too.

 

[HLogic]

Is it getting UV-B or animal protein or D3 supplements?

 

[KTyne]

Is it getting UV-B or animal protein or D3 supplements?

Just bought her a new UV bulb about 2 weeks ago, the previous one I got along with her and not sure how old it was so I got a new one... so yes, UV light is provided.
She gets a calcium supplement on her food a few times a week.
Animal protein she doesn't really get, although I do give her mushrooms and boiled egg (either or) once a week or once every 2 weeks. I tried giving her kingworms before but I don't think she ate any of them.

 

[HLogic]

Don't over supplement with calcium, skip the boiled egg but keep up the brown mushrooms. Be sure it has plenty of water and is kept hydrated.

 

[KTyne]

Don't over supplement with calcium, skip the boiled egg but keep up the brown mushrooms. Be sure it has plenty of water and is kept hydrated.

I don't see how a few times a week is going to be over supplementing calcium? I've read most people supplement every feeding... And may I ask why you say to skip the egg? I have seen most Red Foot owners give egg at least once in a while I've only given it to her twice in the 3 months I've had her.
She has two water dishes in her enclosure that are refilled every day and she gets her soaks.

 

[HLogic]

I don't see how a few times a week is going to be over supplementing calcium? I've read most people supplement every feeding... And may I ask why you say to skip the egg? I have seen most Red Foot owners give egg at least once in a while I've only given it to her twice in the 3 months I've had her.
She has two water dishes in her enclosure that are refilled every day and she gets her soaks.

Oversupplementation refers to quantity not frequency. Too much calcium is problematic and can lead to many problems. Do a web search for "tortoise hypercalcemia".

Eggs are not the ideal protein source. Variety (a word you will see bantered about everywhere) of protein, just as a variety of other foodstuffs, is the key. Additionally, the end product of egg consumption can be rather unpleasant and sometimes eggs are not well tolerated resulting in regurgitation. Mushrooms, pinky mice and even quality cat/dog/tortoise chow provides a better variety of protein than a hard-boiled unfertilized chicken egg. Ask yourself, how often would a RF tort (or any tort) encounter an unfertilized hard-boiled chicken egg in nature - even over the course of a 40 - 80 or more year lifespan? What would they likely encounter?

It sounds like you are on the right track. Variety, moderation and broad background knowledge of the biology, ecology, physiology, etc. of the animal you are keeping is very helpful when trying to provide long-term husbandry. Don't limit yourself to what 'most keepers' are doing. Put it in the context of the species/specimen you are maintaining. If you feel you don't have the basis for context, look at what others are doing, buy a book or ten, speak to long time keepers, research the native range(s), etc. Digest this info, compare it to your husbandry methods, alter things individually and slowly to allow correlations to observed changes.

Not to be disparaging but "most Red-Footed Tortoise owners" believe RF's are tropical 'rain forest' species. I'll leave it to those that believe this to do the research that disproves that commonly held belief.

Most of us, myself included, do not know enough to provide ideal (or probably even reasonable) husbandry for these animals. It is an on-going education. One which probably/hopefully will never end...

 

[cdmay]

I don't see how a few times a week is going to be over supplementing calcium? I've read most people supplement every feeding... And may I ask why you say to skip the egg? I have seen most Red Foot owners give egg at least once in a while I've only given it to her twice in the 3 months I've had her.
She has two water dishes in her enclosure that are refilled every day and she gets her soaks.

HLogic was making a point that I agree with. A well fed young tortoise that receives the correct lighting along with proper hydration and calcium rich foods doesn't really 'need' a calcium supplement. True, many keepers give it anyway with no harm but too much can be a bad thing. If you do offer a calcium supplement do so sparingly at a rate of only once a week, or less.
As for boiled egg...again I agree with HLogic. I sometimes feed a boiled egg to my tortoises--but only to adult females who are themselves laying a lot of eggs. If I want to get protein to them I'll feed fresh cooked chicken or shrimp. Or whole pre killed mice, that have the advantage of bones and viscera. Gross yes, but a good occasional food for breeding females.
A tiny bit of boiled egg to a young tortoise isn't necessarily bad, I just think there are better sources of protein. Also, you will find that the stools your tortoise produces after eating eggs are pretty nasty.

 

[HLogic]

...and I agree with cdmay. In particular, I agree with the last statement. It may not be a problem with a single tort but feeding egg to a group of 30 tortlettes inside will force you to abandon the house!

 

[Anyfoot]

She is on peat moss that after I re-wet it I pack it down so it's a hard enough surface for her to walk on. And in her previous home she was on wood chips, so I don't think it's an issue of not having a firm enough surface to walk on. :\ She does this when you put her on the floor and such too.

I feed my redfoot juveniles a very large variety of greens,fruit and veg including mushrooms, They have constant access to cuttle fish and I can see that they chow on it because of the beak marks in it. I feed them 1 pinky each every Sunday. I put calcium D3 powder mixed with banana once maybe twice a week. Personally I am not happy using calcium powder because I feel its not natural. I use it because its the advice of the moment. I was thinking of not using it at all but mat live to regret that decision. Be it right or wrong what I do, my torts seem very alert and strong. I use a 10%uvb tube 8" above the torts.
My adult reds have fuzzy mice every 10 days. Each eat about 5, I have 2 males that won't eat these and they have cat food instead. For me I feel there must be other nutrients in a natural protein meat like mice that's good for them. I suppose if they came across a chick that had been thrown out the nest in the wild they would eat that.
Just my methods and some thoughts. I'm still learning.

 

[KTyne]

Thank you for the intelligent and well-written responses guys, instead of just berating me like I've gotten on here a few times for questioning people's "expert advice". I appreciate that.
Your points definitely make sense and I'll take them to heart, for sure. She has a cuttlebone in her enclosure that she chews on every once it a while so maybe I'll limit actually dusting her food with calcium to less than once a week.
As for the egg, I can see them finding them in the wild for ground nesting animals but definitely not chicken eggs and obviously not cooked, lol. I agree that mushrooms, pinkies and such are a better source of protein, so I'll go that route! I already keep pinkie mice in my freezer for my snakes so maybe I'll offer her one and see what she does
I've only had her for 3 months and definitely am still learning and I'm glad to have people on here to gain knowledge from, I want to provide the best for this little creature!

 

[cdmay]

Thank you for the intelligent and well-written responses guys, instead of just berating me like I've gotten on here a few times for questioning people's "expert advice". I appreciate that.
Your points definitely make sense and I'll take them to heart, for sure. She has a cuttlebone in her enclosure that she chews on every once it a while so maybe I'll limit actually dusting her food with calcium to less than once a week.
As for the egg, I can see them finding them in the wild for ground nesting animals but definitely not chicken eggs and obviously not cooked, lol. I agree that mushrooms, pinkies and such are a better source of protein, so I'll go that route! I already keep pinkie mice in my freezer for my snakes so maybe I'll offer her one and see what she does
I've only had her for 3 months and definitely am still learning and I'm glad to have people on here to gain knowledge from, I want to provide the best for this little creature!

Wow, I hardly ever get accused of being intelligent... and HLogic never does! We too have learned the hard way so speaking for both of us, we know your plight.
You'll do fine.
Ask questions any time.