Chris Leone- Garden State Tortoise & Hermanni Haven

[microraptorgui]

Chris has been a pleasure to interact with and purchase from. He is very responsive to email and helpful. We are very happy with our new little Ibera Greek, who arrived safe and sound yesterday. Would definitely purchase from him again.

 

[TaylorTortoise]

After doing a ton of research on the species of tortoise that would be the best fit for our family, there was only one clear choice where I would go to purchase our Western Hermann's tortoises: Chris Leone at Garden State Tortoise & Hermanni Haven. The amount of information he has published on the web through his website and videos on youtube has been invaluable to us as new tortoise keepers. After reviewing all the available information, I feel well informed and prepared to take the very best care of these two little hatchling tortoises. We ended up making an entire outdoor enclosure and garden for them, full of edibles and hideouts and a cold box just like the ones Chris has at Garden State Tortoise. By the time the hatchlings are ready to use it, it should be green and lush and a perfect outdoor habitat for them. Barnaby and Portillo arrived right on time, beautifully packaged, alert and healthy and took to exploring their new indoor enclosure right away. Within just a couple hours, I spotted one of them in the food dish munching on the chopped mulberry, hibiscus, rose, and moistened Mazuri salad we made for them. I can not thank Chris enough for helping to bring so much joy and love to our household. Without a doubt, the best possible experience from start to finish and we love our new babies so much! Thank you, Chris!!

What kind of flower/ diet do you put your western hermanns tortoise on?
I am expecting a western hermanns from Chris in June!! Super excited. How long did you have to wait?

 

[TLK]

Unfortunately, I was not as fortunate as others during my experience with Chris Leone at Garden State Tortoise and Hermanni Haven. When I initially contacted Chris about purchasing a tortoise in April of 2023 he was very prompt about answering my questions and following through with the purchase. I was supposed to get a female Dalmatian Hermann’s and a female Eastern Hermann’s which I paid $525 for on April 21, 2023. He told me the tortoises are “They’re typically ready by late July.” On July 31, 2023 I hadn’t heard anything from Chris so I sent him an email asking when they might be able to ship the tortoises. I got a response stating he had to go away unexpectedly for work and to check back the next weekend when he was going to be back. I sent another email on August 7, 2023 asking for an update which I was told “We’re looking at starting to ship next week. We’ll let you know when we have an exact date.” Another week goes by and I hadn’t heard anything so I emailed him again on August 14, 2023 asking if he had an estimate because I work full time and I needed to make sure myself or someone else was going to be home so they weren’t sitting outside in the August heat and they could get proper care after their long flight. On August 15, 2023 he told me “We will be shipping Thursday for Friday arrival.” Understandably I arranged for someone to be at my house when they arrived. Now comes Thursday August 17, 2023 when I receive an email stating they couldn’t be shipped until Monday because FedEx could not guarantee live arrival. I was understandable about the situation because I only want the best for my animals and I didn’t want the risk either. He apologized for the inconvenience and thanked me for my patience. I had to rearrange for someone to be there when they arrived. The tortoises shipped on Monday and arrived on Tuesday. They were both healthy and lively. They had a nice soak and ate right away.

But here is the real problem. The Eastern Hermann was always the bigger and more aggressive tortoise. Around May 2024 the Eastern Hermann's started becoming more aggressive with the Dalmatian Hermann by biting its feet, trying to flip it over, and head butting despite being in a very large habitat. Now we are in August 2024 and I went to pick my Eastern Hermann up to put it in the soaking bin and it was very obviously a MALE (he was 100% showing his male parts). I understand that temperature sexing is not 100% accurate however when I first stated talking to Chris about getting two FEMALE tortoises he stated “Temp sexed females are no problem.” Unfortunately, I ended up having to rehome the Eastern Hermann tortoise because he was constantly biting and mounting the Dalmatian Hermann. When I first considered purchasing a tortoise he highly recommended co-housing and stated “I always always opt for co-housing.” I was very wary of housing two tortoises together and he stated “Yes, you can keep two together regardless of sex.” I felt that I was doing the best thing by purchasing two tortoises so they could have a companion but my Dalmatian seems much happier with being constant harassed. For anyone considering purchasing a tortoise make sure you do more research than just what Chris has on his website and through email. Also make sure you definitely consider all of your purchasing options before choosing Chris Leone at Garden State Tortoise and Hermanni Haven.

I DO NOT recommend Chris and I will never purchase from him again.

 

[SinLA]

This really sounds like an "I housed two tortoises together" problem, not anything to do with the breeder.

You wrote: >> I felt that I was doing the best thing by purchasing two tortoises so they could have a companion but my Dalmatian seems much happier with being constant harassed. << but that is really the problem. You "felt" that was the best case but it wasn't. If you read the care sheets here you will see tortoises should NEVER be keep in pairs. End of story.

Also, not trying to defend Chris specifically here, I am not a fan of getting from breeders (vs rescue, but understand my choice isn't everyone's), but this doesn't sound like anything to do with the breeder one way or another.

 

[wellington]

This really sounds like an "I housed two tortoises together" problem, not anything to do with the breeder.

You wrote: >> I felt that I was doing the best thing by purchasing two tortoises so they could have a companion but my Dalmatian seems much happier with being constant harassed. << but that is really the problem. You "felt" that was the best case but it wasn't. If you read the care sheets here you will see tortoises should NEVER be keep in pairs. End of story.

Also, not trying to defend Chris specifically here, I am not a fan of getting from breeders (vs rescue, but understand my choice isn't everyone's), but this doesn't sound like anything to do with the breeder one way or another.

I see breeder fault. He told the person two tortoises of any sex combo can be housed together.

 

[SinLA]

I see breeder fault. He told the person two tortoises of any sex combo can be housed together.

Ok I missed that

 

[TLK]

This really sounds like an "I housed two tortoises together" problem, not anything to do with the breeder.

You wrote: >> I felt that I was doing the best thing by purchasing two tortoises so they could have a companion but my Dalmatian seems much happier with being constant harassed. << but that is really the problem. You "felt" that was the best case but it wasn't. If you read the care sheets here you will see tortoises should NEVER be keep in pairs. End of story.

Also, not trying to defend Chris specifically here, I am not a fan of getting from breeders (vs rescue, but understand my choice isn't everyone's), but this doesn't sound like anything to do with the breeder one way or another.

I am not trying to cause any issues; I am just sharing my experience. Chris showed a significant lack of communication after I purchased the tortoises. I was skeptical of co-housing because I had read that tortoises should be kept individually. I sent a personal email to Chris before ordering, expressing my concerns, and the responses I received included, "I always opt for co-housing. It’s for more natural than most people in the hobby care to realize. In over 30 years I’ve had the most success doing it this way." and "Yes, you can keep two together regardless of sex." I trusted the breeder even AFTER I had already done hours of research on Hermann tortoises. I'll admit it was a mistake on my part, and I was too trustworthy.

 

[Yvonne G]

This really sounds like an "I housed two tortoises together" problem, not anything to do with the breeder.

You wrote: >> I felt that I was doing the best thing by purchasing two tortoises so they could have a companion but my Dalmatian seems much happier with being constant harassed. << but that is really the problem. You "felt" that was the best case but it wasn't. If you read the care sheets here you will see tortoises should NEVER be keep in pairs. End of story.

Also, not trying to defend Chris specifically here, I am not a fan of getting from breeders (vs rescue, but understand my choice isn't everyone's), but this doesn't sound like anything to do with the breeder one way or another.

The way I read it Chris told them it would be fine to.house them together.

 

[zovick]

The way I read it Chris told them it would be fine to.house them together.

Yes, that was my interpretation of the post as well.

 

[Tom]

I am not trying to cause any issues; I am just sharing my experience. Chris showed a significant lack of communication after I purchased the tortoises. I was skeptical of co-housing because I had read that tortoises should be kept individually. I sent a personal email to Chris before ordering, expressing my concerns, and the responses I received included, "I always opt for co-housing. It’s for more natural than most people in the hobby care to realize. In over 30 years I’ve had the most success doing it this way." and "Yes, you can keep two together regardless of sex." I trusted the breeder even AFTER I had already done hours of research on Hermann tortoises. I'll admit it was a mistake on my part, and I was too trustworthy.

I agree with you that that is on him. "Co-housing", which to me means housing them in groups, is a good way to go, but never pairs, and never different species or subspecies. Groups of juveniles of the same species and size, will usually get along just fine. Never pairs, never different species or subspecies, and at least with the Testudo genus, never different sizes. For the last two decades, I have only ever housed tortoises in groups, except in the rare case that an overly aggressive maturing male needed himself some solitary confinement. If Chris really said what you quoted above, that is a mistake he made, and you've seen first hand that the info he gave you is not correct. I can understand why you would believe him, even though you read otherwise elsewhere.

Lesson leanred. Tell other people so that more tortoises don't have to go through what yours went through. Your remaining tortoise will be perfectly happy all alone.

On the subject of temp sexing: Only sulcatas have been tested in a lab setting. And the temps that have been learned and verified for sulcatas only work if a person is using lab grade accurate equipment for incubation and temperature regulation. No other species has been studied in a lab, so the temps for 100% females or 100% males are not known. As a general rule, temps on the warmer end of the range for a given species should be producing more females, but as you have now learned first hand, that is not a guarantee. We see this frequently with Burmese star tortoises. Everyone is "incubating for female", and almost all of the babies produced are male. I bought 14 "incubated for female" platynota babies in 2013 and ended up with 8 males. I was lucky. Another forum member here bought 15 and got 100% males. It took two years of his time to grow them large enough to sex them all.