Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a tortoise enclosure?

[StudentoftheReptile]

Its been discussed before. I expect this behavior from lay people on the street. But it saddens me on a deeper level when fellow herp enthusiasts (in this case, tortoise keepers), people who I suppose I've always felt were "on the same side" when it comes to reptiles, and such....when such people resort to the same ignorance, hysterical behavior and prejudice...[sigh].

Don't really want to get into it again. I pretty much summed up my thoughts in the first post I made in this thread.

 

[Tom]

I understand. I'll leave it alone then.

 

[Neal]

I didn't read through to find out what type of snake it was, but if it wasn't poisonous, my view is that it should have been at least relocated. I would accept killing a poisonous snake (as long as it wasn't a threatened species), only because I have little kids that play in my yard and I wouldn't want to relocate a poisonous snake only to have it find its way back to my house. Sorry to say that here, but my families safety comes first.

I'm the same way with scorpions. Since they are a threat to little kids and to tortoises, I usually kill off any that I find for the most part. If I didn't have the kids or the tortoises, it would be different. The type of scorpions we get around here are by no means threatened, so I'm not worried about killing off too many.

 

[CactusVinnie]

While I somehow understand the ignorance behind the snake killing as a fast, unthinked reaction, I would never understand those really "intelligent" comments from others... very "ferocious" and/or "protective".
"KILL everything in sight, if enters your backyard!! They have to die anyway, some day!" WOW!!! It give me goosebumps... are you people real?

2 mistakes done:
- killing a snake, no matter what species, venomous or not, when you had lots of variants... and all the beings would have been safe if you took the time to think how to deal with; I am not talking about much time, since a snake, IF decided to eat a small tortoise, he cannot do that as fast as lightning, as fast as a bird catches an insect; a snake inspects, checks, etc. first, when such a weird, slow or not-moving food item;
- your bravery, love etc. could have spelled "emergency room" for you if you really entered in the bite-range of a venomous one... but I suppose that if that close to the tortoise, and reaching the dangerous range for you, you would not had the imprudence to grab Zeus. I really doubt that people being that affraid of snakes to kill them on sight have the guts to get that close to them...

So... useless killing... and the second goosebumpy thing is that you just said "no more wandering jew", "we will change enclosure" etc., but no bit of regret for that killing... that was an innocent animal. exactly like your tortoise.

I teach my daughters to differentiate snakes, never approach a suspect one. If kids can get it, it should be easy for an adult too.

Even when I was bitten I did not killed the viper... maybe if in another country, where snake ID is crucial after a bite, I would do it to save my skin, but not for less.

People today have a kind of brutality that I cannot understand... it's not about being a bad person, it's something different... anyway, it's wrong.

 

[taytay3391]

RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto

Are you all vegans? Because you should be if you're so intense about this killing. Jeebus.

 

[TheTortoiseWhisperer]

I wont point out word for word the "ignorant" statements that were made on BOTH sides of the debate, instead I'll quote what I believe was the most mature, understanding statement that even included great advise ever since ICUSleeping posted her experience with the snake--->

shellysmom
Member


Posts: 213
Joined: Feb 2011
RE: Close encounter with a snake
Wow, you were definitely brave to grab a snake without having any idea if it was venomous or not. Now that you know such a snake is not a threat, if you ever encounter another one like that, you can let it go.
~ Erika <----that to me was one of the best post here because we should all remember that none of us are born knowing. Not all of us were raised by animal lovers. Some of us like me, are just now entering the amazing world of reptiles, and before this forum as ignorant as it may be to some of you, I have always seen a snake as a potential danger and until now in my adult life is when I've met people who have encouraged me to reconsider my views but it certainly was not here and now because I have actually been so surprised to see how SOME people who obviously love and seem to promote education to protect these creatures can go into full attack mode, even when it's been clear from the very beginning that the now famous snake wasn't killed with the intent of malice but instead a reaction to protect.

 

[Tom]

That's the thing... She didn't grab the snake. She grabbed her tortoise. No one and no animal was in danger any longer. It was after the fact the the husband decided to go get a shovel and come back and kill the snake. Killing the snake wasn't a knee-jerk reaction because the tortoise was in harms way.

And seriously, no one is attacking anyone. We are simply trying to point out that it could have and should have been handled differently. The hope is to get people to reconsider their actions, not make them feel like a villain.

Also, many of us grew up in the city and not in the company of animal lovers. I was surrounded by concrete and asphalt my entire childhood. My mother was not an animal lover and said no to just about everything I wanted to do with animals. The point is that it only takes a few minutes of google searching to figure out what animals might be found near you. I said before in another thread that my job requires me to do this regularly. Just recently I was filming in a Louisiana swamp. About 20 minutes of Internet time gave me a good idea of what to expect out there. More time would have yielded more info. I was only there for a couple of weeks. If I was going to live there, I would take the time to study up a bit.

And TayTay, because you don't condone the senseless killing of wildlife does not have anything to do with making someone a vegan. I am a carnitarian. I eat some sort of meat nearly every day. I also kill local wildlife all the time, when it makes SENSE to do so. For example when yet another gopher tunnels in and tries to make a meal of my mulberry tree's roots. I've killed several dozen for this offense, but not before they managed to kill one of my 12 year old mature trees, and dozens of other plants and bushes. Does any of this sound "vegan" to you?

My hope is that the OP, and anyone else who senselessly kills wild animals out of fear or ignorance, will reconsider those actions, and take a moment to educate themselves. If there is a good reason to kill it, and you know what you are killing and why, then by all means, slay away. If she were to have come here and said that a copperhead or a rattle snake was in her enclosure and potentially a threat to her animals or children, I don't think most of us would have raised an eyebrow. But because they don't even know what it was, and no one was in any danger at the time of the killing, it is upsetting to those who have an appreciation for the natural world. In other words, this discussion is not because someone killed a snake. That happens all the time and it's understandable in some instances. That someone killed an unknown species for no good reason is what is in question here.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Right on, Tom.

Our local herp society just participated in a safety event this past weekend to help educate folks about identifying snake species in our area, as well as correct protocol for turtle rescues.

Just for anyone not in the know, southwest Alabama has more herp biodiversity than any other place in the U.S. State-wide we have about 40+ snake species, and only 6 are venomous. Two are virtually non-existant, which leaves 4 that one may possibly encounter.

99% of the time, anyone calls me or sends me a pic on my phone, or shares a Facebook photo of a snake they just found, it is a common harmless species (garter snake, brown snake, ratsnake, racer). In 20 yrs of working with reptiles, I can count on one hand with fingers left over how many venomous snakes friends and family have found (that I was told about). Granted, people who live in more rural areas are more likely to come across a rattler or copperhead than someone living downtown. And likewise, people hanging out in and around waterways are more likely to see cottonmouths (arguably our most common venomous snake in the south).

Now I understand this is Alabama. The biodiversity is going to be different in other parts of the country, which is why I always advocate people to take the time to get familiar with the snake species native to their area. But nevertheless, I wager that most of the time they encounter a snake, its going to be a harmless species and there's no need to kill some tiny little animal that eats toads or slugs.

---

And yes, the only snake species in North America that is known to include chelonians in its diet is the eastern indigo snake. Remains of hatchling gopher tortoises have been found in the stool of wild specimens (I imagine mostly shell fragments). Not too surprising since that snake often dens in gopher tortoise burrows. I don't know if the Texas indigo is known to share this feeding behavior.

Nearly all of the other larger snake species in the U.S. are rodent-eaters. This includes the adult ratsnakes, cornsnakes, Pituophis genus (pine, gopher, bullsnakes), and most rattlesnakes. In essence, any snake (with the exception of the aforementioned indigo, which is a rare and endangered Southeastern species) large enough to try to eat a small tortoise, wouldn't even think about it.
----

I do recall reading somewhere that occasionally large cottonmouths may take hatchling aquatic turtles, but don't have the documentation, so I dunno about that one.

 

[taytay3391]

RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto

I just don't see how someone who eats meat can be so disgusted with her for killing a snake. And hunting? That's about the same thing. Senseless killing. People do it every day. Please check on the conditions of the meat you eat then. Because they keep those animals in TERRIBLE WRETCHED conditions. It's ridiculous. So that's also terrible and disgusting.

 

[Neal]

RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto

I just don't see how someone who eats meat can be so disgusted with her for killing a snake. And hunting? That's about the same thing. Senseless killing. People do it every day. Please check on the conditions of the meat you eat then. Because they keep those animals in TERRIBLE WRETCHED conditions. It's ridiculous. So that's also terrible and disgusting.

Hunting isn't senseless killing, it has a purposes (to obtain meat to eat being one of them).

The killing of the snake was senseless killing, or at least that is what is being debated here.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I find it very ironic that hunting is (obviously, by the statements made in this thread!) just as misunderstood as snakes are. It always seems to me that people who "have all the facts" about hunting and make such outlandish claims have likely never hunted themselves, and probably never picked up a gun in their life, much less actually researched the subject at length and/or spent time with REAL hunters.

---

Hunting isn't senseless killing, it has a purpose (to obtain meat to eat).

The killing of the snake was senseless killing, or at least that is what is being debated here.

Ditto.

True hunting has more than one purpose, not just using said quarry for meat, skin, or whatever. Regulation hunting helps preserve populations of game species (so everyone isn't out killing everything in sight anywhere they please), and going hand-in-hand, helps eradicate invasive or over-populated species in some areas, such as feral pigs or coyote. REAL hunters take the sport seriously and do not abuse their privilege to participate in the activity. As Neal said, it is not senseless.

Killing any animal simply out of ignorance (and prejudice in most cases), is senseless. (literally without sense).

Like Tom said earlier, this is not necessarily meant to be an insult or a personal attack. Just giving a broader and well-rounded perspective on the matter and offering tips on how to handle the scenario should it ever arise again.

 

[Madkins007]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

Mark we have a whole host of snakes out here, but we hardly ever see most of them. I've seen two ring necks, around a dozen red racers, and a few garters. In contrast, I have seen literally 100's of rattlesnakes and gopher snakes, and dozens of kingsnakes. Sooooo for the purposes of someone out here being able to ID the venomous ones, it's pretty easy.

Ah! Around here, the garters, ring-necks, and gophers are the far more abundant. We have two local kings, and count ourselves very blessed to find them on a field trip. We have three species of venomous near here, and even in the 'hot' spots they are really hard to find most of the time.

We did run into one poor guy who had Timber rattlers living under his porch and in most of his outbuildings. He also, predictably, had a huge rodent problem. He was one of the few people I have ever met who had a legitimate reason to kill snakes rather indiscriminately.

 

[SDDTMama]

Okay, label me ignorant, but what, pray tell, is a 'wandering jew'? Is it referencing the plant that came up when I 'Googled' it?

**o_0**

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Right on, Tom.

 

[ascott]

Wow all.....I know that as I read here I see there are clearly two different opinions....and that is great....I personally agree that knowledge is key---and lack of knowledge in itself is also a choice---the fact that someone lives in the city vs the country should not be an excuse for ignorance---I mean actually I believe folks in the country get the raw end of the deal when being accused of ignorance D)...when in reality, it is entirely all of our responsibilities to know a little about our world and more over our immediate surroundings...

I mean we all, I would guess, know a little something about a killer whale but likely those of us that have a little knowledge don't have them wandering in our neighborhoods....or we know a little about elephants but again highly unlikely that they are wandering about in most of our neighborhoods...so my point being, it is our responsibility to know a little about some stuff and I personally know that the more I gain in knowledge, about many things, makes me a more rounded person---also, if I am somewhere and I run across some critter that I have learned a bit about then that encounter is that much more awesome---I feel like part of the moment vs uncomfortable or perhaps nervous which can take away from the moment---also, the more we can learn is that much more we can share with others....share all...share

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Well, here's another example for people to think about.

My wife hates spiders. I'm not a big fan myself, but for the most part, don't mind them as long as they don't come in my house. Since we have two kids under the age of 2, this is been more of a concern, since we do occasionally see spiders in the home, and even a bite from a so-called "harmless" spider to an infant or toddler can be a big deal. And just a few months ago, I did find a black widow in my wife's car. So yeah, it is a concern!

What do we do? We have spent HOURS looking at pictures and websites of different spider species in our area: how big do they get, what the females look like, what the males look like, what habitats they frequent, what the bites look like (so we can differentiate from ant and skeeter bites), etc etc etc. We have become amateur spider experts in a sense (lol).

If most people spent half the time researching about their local snake species as we have about spiders, they'd be in a good shape, and I'd wager a lot less snakes would meet a premature death via shovel.

 

[TortoiseBoy1999]

RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto

As much as I love snakes..... I would have killed it rather risking my tortoise's life. It was a think fast moment and she made a quick decision. I love snakes and always will and will always want one. But I love my tort's more. Sorry that's just the way it is for me. (I can't have a snake because my mom is afraid of them to death )

 

[Tom]

RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto

As much as I love snakes..... I would have killed it rather risking my tortoise's life. It was a think fast moment and she made a quick decision. I love snakes and always will and will always want one. But I love my tort's more. Sorry that's just the way it is for me. (I can't have a snake because my mom is afraid of them to death )

It would be a little more understandable if the tortoise was in jeopardy, but it wasn't. The tortoise had already been removed from the situation and THEN the shovel was fetched and the snake killed. The tortoises life was not at risk when the snake was killed.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Ignorance is a very contagious pathogen, but easily curable. For some reason, the majority of those who suffer from this terrible disease deliberately refuse the cure.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a torto

As all points and good opinions seem to have been stated, why not just close this thread. I think this starts to turn into unnecessary debates... Basically i can see most people have same good view, but repeatedly restating and debating it till 8 pages...

Cheers