Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a tortoise enclosure?

[jessrich87]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

I would do whatever it takes to protect myself, my family or my pets. Countless times has my fiancé grabbed the gun when he heard strange noises in the night, the dog yelping outside or seen coyotes in our yard. Luckily, we have not had to kill anything yet... I just don't get all the offense taken by the ops action I guess. I love animals... All animals. I am sad when squirrels get hit by cars. However, I also assume the responsibility to protect the things that are most important to me. In this case, it is not the snake. And if killing the snake was the best option to stop immediate harm to my tort or me, then there would be no hesitation. Of course, if the snake was on the other side of the yard minding it's business, I'd prob just try to have a professional relocate it or scare it away myself.

 

[shellysmom]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

I don't kill Spiders, I release them. If I were to ever set a trap for a mouse or rat it would be a live trap and then the animal would be released outside.
ANY misguided killing of an animal is wrong. She didn't know what kind of snake it was. What if it was endangered or protected?

Jeez! You did fine! Someone or something would have killed the snake anyway. CIRCLE OF LIFE, EVERYTHING DIES.

Are you a vegan?

That's actually a good point, there. No one who eats animals should be giving ICU a hard time. I'm vegan, but I didn't give her a hard time because it was an understandable reason for a freak-out.

 

[richellesworld]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

You have to trust your intuition. I support you and you seem like you area great mom! Keep on being cautious. I am happy all is well with you and your family. Sending happy thoughts and positive energy your way!

 

[SulcataSquirt]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

Too many people worry about animals being killed. its the circle of life. The snake would have been eaten eventually either way.

Just trying to get your point straight here... so since as you say, the snake will end up dying any how, no big deal if this human does it today then something else kills it tomorrow, correct? Well taking this same line of thinking, that would also mean this tortoise will die some how also, so what's the big deal if the snake did it now and gets it over with??? See this entire circle of life thing, just doesn't make sense to me. Why should either one of them have to die today, if things could be done so they could live for another day? Who knows, perhaps that snake if it had lived might have eaten some bug who may bite the child and kill it next week or some mouse who has the Hantavirus which may infect the entire family in a month. I hope neither thing happens, but cause and effect theory here. .... just sayin' and wonderin'

I do understand why the OP's husband reacted so violently, but I am sorry he did so.

it is the circle of life, we are just adjusting it, THINK about how HARD we try to PROTECT our TORTS. Just if i were a snake person and not a tort person i would feel that way about the snake eating the tort. The snake has to eat.. but in a tort lovers case we go above and beyond to keep our torts safe until that are big enough to protect them selves, or for some torts that stay little they have to be protected forever, otherwise this happends and a snake gets killed. It could have been a crow, or coyote, or bear. Alot of people see a snake as harmless other not so much. In your case think of it as a coyote destroying your tort collection. would you try to collar it up and relocate it?

 

[sibi]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

People react to situations differently. Often, there isn't time to think...you just react. But, if you react because you are trying to save your baby, who can really fault you for that? Sometimes, the way people react to others and say mean things w/o considering the feelings, fears, and emotions that someone else is experiencing says more about the criticizer than it does about the other person. We are here to LEARN about our animals, but also about ourselves. Let's not forget that.

The other night i had a dream that a snake got to my lil zeus outside. I told my husband about it and he just brushed me off saying he'll be ok. Well last night i let zeus spend the night for the first time outside he has a strong net like covering the top of his habitat. Worried that something might happen to him i ask my husband is it a good idea he told me he'll be fine nothing can get to him. So today in this beautiful florida weather its raining and sunny i figured zeus is having a blast. I go to check on him and i hear something to my right i look and its a SNAKE!!! I screamed for my husband he went and got the shovel. He ask's me Wheres Zeus? ...I say in his burrow... wheres the snake? ....Going under the net RIGHT BEHIND zeus's BURROW!!! I jump under the net stick my hand in his burrow and grab him. My husband screaming WHAT ARE YOU DOING YOUR CRAZY! You could of got bit. I didnt care i wasnt going to let the snake get zeus ... My husband beheads the snake and it wasnt poisonous But now i know its time to change his enclousre. No more wandering jew. No more net. Lesson learned

 

[Tom]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

Does anyone else see the difference between killing a detrimental or potentially dangerous pest species, like a mouse, rat, gopher or coyote, as different from killing a non-pest species that is actually beneficial?

In my own part of the world, I can understand why people kill the rattlesnakes. Not saying I agree with it, but I understand it. What I DON'T understand is killing non-venemous, harmless, beneficial snakes, like the kings and the gopher snakes. There are people around me who kill any snake they see and when I explain to them that this practice will actually lead to more rodents AND more rattlesnakes, they usually are dumbfounded. They stand there looking at me. When I ask if they know why its called a "KING" snake (because they eat other snakes, like rattlers), they have no idea. King snakes and gopher snakes EAT the rattlesnakes. Why would someone kill their ally? Why would you kill a harmless animal that is protecting you from a very dangerous one?

Killing pest or potentially dangerous animals is fine. Wantonly killing everything because you are ignorant (This word is not an insult. It simply means someone does not know something. For example when it comes to brain surgery, I am ignorant.), is NOT okay. I cannot imagine living somewhere and not taking a few minutes to do a google search to find out what types of potentially dangerous, or venomous animals are near you. I do this every time I go out of town. Its not difficult and there is really no excuse for it anymore with the internet, which everyone on this forum clearly understands how to use.

I am certainly no vegan. And I kill animals nearly every day. Mice, rats, ground squirrels, gophers, black widows, etc. None of these animals are beneficial (one could argue, I know...) and we have an extreme over-abundance of all of them. All of them are detrimental to me in some way. But... I hate road runners because they eat the fence swifts that eat the flies that I hate so much. But I don't kill them. I just shoo them away. Same thing with the ravens. They could potentially eat my baby tortoises. I don't shoot them out of the sky. I put wire frames over my babies and shoo the ravens away.

May I suggest the OP and her husband, and anyone else who does not know what lives around them, take a few minutes to learn which species are helping you and which ones could harm you? And then build your enclosure to keep out the potentially dangerous animals that occur in YOUR area. Half inch hardware cloth will keep snakes out, and just about anything else too, short of a bear.

And Yvonne, this will be very simple for you. If it has a rattle, go ahead and kill it if you must. If it doesn't have a rattle, it EATS the ones that DO have a rattle, so don't kill them for goodness sakes. Please.

There is really no excuse for living in this kind of ignorance. And there is certainly no excuse for killing harmless, beneficial local wildlife because of ignorance.

 

[fbsmith3]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

Tom, I agree with you 100%. I am a reptile person, I love all reptiles and go out of my way to rescue snakes from people with phobias. My wife has a terrible phobia of snakes, but being Buddhist will call me to move snakes from harm.

 

[LuckysGirl007]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

Does anyone else see the difference between killing a detrimental or potentially dangerous pest species, like a mouse, rat, gopher or coyote, as different from killing a non-pest species that is actually beneficial?

In my own part of the world, I can understand why people kill the rattlesnakes. Not saying I agree with it, but I understand it. What I DON'T understand is killing non-venemous, harmless, beneficial snakes, like the kings and the gopher snakes. There are people around me who kill any snake they see and when I explain to them that this practice will actually lead to more rodents AND more rattlesnakes, they usually are dumbfounded. They stand there looking at me. When I ask if they know why its called a "KING" snake (because they eat other snakes, like rattlers), they have no idea. King snakes and gopher snakes EAT the rattlesnakes. Why would someone kill their ally? Why would you kill a harmless animal that is protecting you from a very dangerous one?

Killing pest or potentially dangerous animals is fine. Wantonly killing everything because you are ignorant (This word is not an insult. It simply means someone does not know something. For example when it comes to brain surgery, I am ignorant.), is NOT okay. I cannot imagine living somewhere and not taking a few minutes to do a google search to find out what types of potentially dangerous, or venomous animals are near you. I do this every time I go out of town. Its not difficult and there is really no excuse for it anymore with the internet, which everyone on this forum clearly understands how to use.

I am certainly no vegan. And I kill animals nearly every day. Mice, rats, ground squirrels, gophers, black widows, etc. None of these animals are beneficial (one could argue, I know...) and we have an extreme over-abundance of all of them. All of them are detrimental to me in some way. But... I hate road runners because they eat the fence swifts that eat the flies that I hate so much. But I don't kill them. I just shoo them away. Same thing with the ravens. They could potentially eat my baby tortoises. I don't shoot them out of the sky. I put wire frames over my babies and shoo the ravens away.

May I suggest the OP and her husband, and anyone else who does not know what lives around them, take a few minutes to learn which species are helping you and which ones could harm you? And then build your enclosure to keep out the potentially dangerous animals that occur in YOUR area. Half inch hardware cloth will keep snakes out, and just about anything else too, short of a bear.

And Yvonne, this will be very simple for you. If it has a rattle, go ahead and kill it if you must. If it doesn't have a rattle, it EATS the ones that DO have a rattle, so don't kill them for goodness sakes. Please.

There is really no excuse for living in this kind of ignorance. And there is certainly no excuse for killing harmless, beneficial local wildlife because of ignorance.

Actually, when driving around during monsoon season out here there are a LOT of King snakes that come out on the roads and get squished. If my Uncle saw one laying in the road near his house he would stop and catch it. He relocated them back to his property! We liked having them around!

 

[ascott]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

I am glad that your tort is safe. Snakes and torts have lived together for a long time....here in the desert rattlesnakes and CDTs co habitat with one another and the snake relies on the CDT for sharing the space after all of the hard work has been done by the tort.....

Please do not think I am bitching at you I would plead with you to do as previously suggested and research a bit of your geographic location as to what common critters are present...kinda cool when you can spot a critter and know what it is and if it is fatal or not...then you can truly begin to marvel at nature and enjoy seeing it feeling a bit more secure in knowing which should be viewed from a safe distance and the ones you can creep up a bit closer to and view...

 

[Jacqui]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

In your case think of it as a coyote destroying your tort collection. would you try to collar it up and relocate it?

How about instead of giving an answer of "I think I would..." We look at what I have done in the past two different times with my poultry flock. First time it was a mother fox getting them. I left the fox alone and tried to improve my chicken keeping methods. (I had bought a house which was the year before housing the fox den under one of the outbuildings) I felt I was the intruder. Next was a few years latter when coons started going after the chickens. I worked on making the coons know they were not welcomed and worked on the coop, again. I even had a neighbor boy who was a trapper/hunter offer to do the honors of killing these animals for me.

Now I do have after-the-fact pictures of the day this summer I went to my pond and saw a snake in it. My turtles went after the snake, but I pulled it out (actually out of one turtle's mouth even ). Just a week or two ago, I directed a snake away from the tortoise enclosure (Homes hingeback one) that it was attempting to get into. So I guess my track record does speak for itself? To make it perfectly clear, the coyote would not be harmed by me. I try not to make innocent people and animals pay for MY mistakes.

Now I am not a big snake lover. I do respect them and their place in the environment. I have in the past kept a ball python (he died fairly recently). You know why I kept him? To try to work through my fear of snakes. It worked part way, I had no problem with my own snake and will readily hold calm snakes folks hand me. Now wild snakes still make me very nervous and uneasy. We do have two dangerous types of snakes in my local area. I did the smart thing and learned how to recognize the ones with potential harm to my family (human and other wise).

 

[Madkins007]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

And Yvonne, this will be very simple for you. If it has a rattle, go ahead and kill it if you must. If it doesn't have a rattle, it EATS the ones that DO have a rattle, so don't kill them for goodness sakes. Please.

??? Gophers, ring-necks, gartersnakes, and some of the others in her region don't eat other snakes. Certainly, they are good and valuable snakes, but I am wondering if I am missing something here.

I understand the reference to the really cool king snakes, that get their name from their habit of eating other snakes- including rattlers- but they don't make a special diet of them (lots of eggs, small rodents, etc. as well) and even share burrows with rattlers.

---

To answer the actual question the post is asking- no. Why deprive our torts the chance at a live snack?

 

[wellington]

Does anyone else see the difference between killing a detrimental or potentially dangerous pest species, like a mouse, rat, gopher or coyote, as different from killing a non-pest species that is actually beneficial?

I really hate to disagree with you Tom. But all animals have a place in this world, all are actually beneficial and have a point. They are all here for a reason. I don't think killing any of them is the right thing to do. However, I don't think what the poster did was wrong in their situation. For some to come down on them like they were serial killers is a little ridiculous. No one is perfect in this world. However some were acting as if they were and these people were the worst thing that lived all because they were protecting their tort and that's what they thought. I would hate to have had them go,figure out first if it was dangerous or not and then find out they took to long and their tort, dog, child was killed or bit. I personally would never want an animal killed for any reason, but that perfect world doesn't exist. Some of us think quicker on our feet then others. Some of us put more time into learning the dangerous snake species in our area, most probably don't. Thankfully we all can be different that way. But makes no one better then the other. Now they know, hopefully they won't have to panic next time and leave the snake alone. If not, really their business, they have to live there not any of us.

 

[EKLC]

If your enclosure is not locked down enough to keep out something large enough to eat your tort, I would not keep him outside at night. I'd be much more concerned about raccoons, rats, dogs, humans.

I regard those threats just as something you have to accept and account for when designing your enclosure. If you kill one, there is another one to take its place. Except the humans, I always trap and kill those when they threaten my torts.

 

[Tom]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

And Yvonne, this will be very simple for you. If it has a rattle, go ahead and kill it if you must. If it doesn't have a rattle, it EATS the ones that DO have a rattle, so don't kill them for goodness sakes. Please.

??? Gophers, ring-necks, gartersnakes, and some of the others in her region don't eat other snakes. Certainly, they are good and valuable snakes, but I am wondering if I am missing something here.

I understand the reference to the really cool king snakes, that get their name from their habit of eating other snakes- including rattlers- but they don't make a special diet of them (lots of eggs, small rodents, etc. as well) and even share burrows with rattlers.

---

To answer the actual question the post is asking- no. Why deprive our torts the chance at a live snack?

---

Mark we have a whole host of snakes out here, but we hardly ever see most of them. I've seen two ring necks, around a dozen red racers, and a few garters. In contrast, I have seen literally 100's of rattlesnakes and gopher snakes, and dozens of kingsnakes. Sooooo for the purposes of someone out here being able to ID the venomous ones, it's pretty easy.

---

Does anyone else see the difference between killing a detrimental or potentially dangerous pest species, like a mouse, rat, gopher or coyote, as different from killing a non-pest species that is actually beneficial?

I really hate to disagree with you Tom. But all animals have a place in this world, all are actually beneficial and have a point. They are all here for a reason. I don't think killing any of them is the right thing to do. However, I don't think what the poster did was wrong in their situation. For some to come down on them like they were serial killers is a little ridiculous. No one is perfect in this world. However some were acting as if they were and these people were the worst thing that lived all because they were protecting their tort and that's what they thought. I would hate to have had them go,figure out first if it was dangerous or not and then find out they took to long and their tort, dog, child was killed or bit. I personally would never want an animal killed for any reason, but that perfect world doesn't exist. Some of us think quicker on our feet then others. Some of us put more time into learning the dangerous snake species in our area, most probably don't. Thankfully we all can be different that way. But makes no one better then the other. Now they know, hopefully they won't have to panic next time and leave the snake alone. If not, really their business, they have to live there not any of us.

I used to think this way when I lived in the city too. Country living is different. It's a war out there. A war with the wildlife. They counter every move you make and find ways around your defenses. Sometimes drastic measures are necessary. Still, one can't just go killing any animal on sight. You gotta know your enemy and take steps, to minimize collateral damage.

 

[conservation]

In my opinion, killing a snake for being in your tortoise enclosure is no different than the ranchers who kill tortoises because they believe the tortoises are competing with their herd animals. Both are done out of ignorance or lack of knowledge.

It is important to learn about the wild animals that live in your backyard. Spend a few minutes and familiarize yourself with the snakes in your area. What if you killed an endangered or rare species? What if it was harmless?

If anybody has questions about identifying snakes in their area, PM me your Zipcode and I will make you a snake ID guide.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

[split] Close encounter with a snake

I agree with any suggestions that any tortoise keeper should take the time to make themselves familiar with the local wildlife that may occasionally find itself in the enclosure. This includes wild snakes, venomous and nonvenomous.

 

[Tom]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

I think Jacqui did the right thing in trying to move the debate portion of the thread over to the debatable topics forum. With so many members coming down on the "dont't kill snakes" side of the coin, it was starting to feel a bit like we were all picking on the OP. This is how we lose our members.

I disagree. I didn't see anyone being rude or insulting. The OP started a topic. The forum members responded with their opinions. That's what a forum is for.

My point, and I think others agree, is not necessarily "never kill a snake", but instead, we are urging others to not go killing anything when you don't even know what it is. Also, the tortoise had already been removed from the situation and was no longer in any danger.

No one was picking on the OP. We were simply sharing our views on the matter. Jeez. You guys sure aren't this trigger happy when it feels like someone is picking on me... Aren't you afraid I'm gonna leave?

To ICU, we aren't picking on you. We are just having a conversation. You are welcome here and wanted. Killing and the death of animals can be an emotionally charged subject. We're just sharing our thoughts with you on the matter.

 

[jpmcclure]

RE: Close encounter with a snake

Tom cannot go!! EVER!! Hey wait, are we debating again?

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Its threads like this one that make me ashamed to share my hobby with others.

 

[Tom]

RE: Close encounter with a snake... should a snake be killed if found within a tortoi

Its threads like this one that make me ashamed to share my hobby with others.

How so?