Coccidia

deadheadvet

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For those not educated on the people who published this article,
Mike Garner is likely the best reptile pathologist in the country.
Jim Wellehan is the head of the Zoo Wildlife program at the Univ. of Florida
Tracy McNamara is a pathologist at the Bronx Zoo.
April Childress runs the PCR lab at the U of F.
Last but not least: Elliott Jacobson who knows more about reptile diseases than anyone in the world. He has published more than 400 refereed journal articles.
Anyone who does not want to use this information, your loss. I for one am a better reptile veterinarian thanks to these people's dedication to these species of animals.
 

BrianWI

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Coccidia are common in poultry. Amprolium (Corid) is used to stop or prevent it. Not sure in a tortoise.
 

BrianWI

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I looked it up, says it is safe for reptiles ( saw snakes mentioned).

However, once you see symptoms in poultry, the secondary effects from the damage usually kill the bird. You are more or less treating the others that have yet to show symptoms. I would say if you are going to treat for cocci, you do it as fast as possible.
 

tortadise

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Yep I've been through this before. Nasty nasty stuff. Nice pure Kenyan leopard I had tested for it and perished. Another rescue cherry head tested positive for it and is still thriving quite well to this day. Tested positive almost 3 years ago now. It's very very dangerous. Elliot is of course the most suited person when it comes to this, after all his most fabulous uncle pioneered the UFL lab in doing these tests. Roadrunner is also a great pharmacy. Imsuggestbthe strawberry to anyone getting the panazuril if your animal tests positive.
 

BrianWI

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It is a totally different organism in tortoises.

No not totally different. They are very similar. Eimeria species are actuallyfound in both. Amprolium should be effective in both.
 

deadheadvet

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Brian:
These are not the same species of Eimeria. We are dealing with an intracellular Coccidian specific to Tortoises. Because the organism lives inside of the cell, coccidiostat drugs will be ineffective. Ponazuril is the drug of choice. We are currently treating an adult tortoise going on 10 months. Her PCR results have improved but it is not zero. The likelihood of spreading the organism to other Tortoises is likely when there are copies of the organism present. It is unknown the transmission of the organism. It could be a water borne protozoan that requires the Tortoise to complete the lifecycle. That is why it does not show up on fecal flotation. The current guidelines for treatment are being worked out as we speak. Dosing is being done on sea turtles at 50-100mg/Kg every other day. The issue is the cost of treatment. Adult Tortoises will require anywhere from 300-1000mg. every other day. 450mg capsules #30 would be around 100 bucks. Now multiply by 6-12months, and you see how it can be a difficult treatment regimen. Most tortoise species would cost more to treat then the value of the animal. Each time you test, is an additional 200 bucks. You can easily spend 1500-2000$ for a full course of treatment plus testing to follow the progress.
 

BrianWI

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Of course they are a different species of Eimeria. However, what makes you think Amprolium only targets one species? It has actually been used successfully in reptiles and fish.

Second, if they saw this in the average vet office from a living tortoise (I will assume a stool sample), what makes you think it is an intranuclear coccidia?
 

deadheadvet

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Intranuclear coccidia does not show up on a regular fecal exam. There are other types of Eimeria that will show up on fecal flotation. The intranuclear type is a very Eimeria specific form that is species specific to Tortoises. U of F has worked out the strain of Eimeria that is the culprit and have created a DNA test identifying the organism in submitted samples.The other forms of Eimeria are pathogenic but mortality is nowhere as high as the intranuclear form. Ponazuril will be effective against the type of Eimeria you are discussing. Amprolium is a coccidiostat drug that is primarily used in Chickens. In order for a drug to penetrate the cell, it would need to be chemically correct. Sulfadimethoxine would probably be a better choice than Amprolium in my opinion. Again we are talking about drugs that are at least 40 years old and have lost their effectivity. Ponazuril is a newer compound that has been successful in treating Equine Protozoal Meningoencephalitis. Which means it can cross the blood brain barrier. Therefore it will be able to penetrate into cells to hopefully kill the protozoa. The other meds you have mentioned are not effective.
 

BrianWI

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So why did you jump to the conclusion that the OP was talking about intranuclear coccidia when it was likely a fecal exam that discovered it.

Also, amprolium is used in cattle, sheep, fish, reptiles, cats, dogs and chickens. But in any case, the post was about this particular tortoise. If the OP "saw" the organism himself, this was NOT a DNA test. Basically the post is about apples and your talking oranges.

And new drugs are great, the new coccidicides in particular. Affordable in a tortoise???
 
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deadheadvet

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Since you seem to believe Amprolium is effective in Tortoises, feel free to furnish us with the literature documenting its effectivity. I have previously furnished my thoughts with a journal reference regarding the topic. Any proof as to your recommendations would be appreciated.
 

BrianWI

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Instead, I will let you be wrong. You are all over the map trying to argue, not my cup of tea. I get the vet thing now I have read a few times here.

In any case, I would treat the tortoise (and I stick by Amprolium for the OP) as soon as possible. If you have doubts yourself, you can look it up in the Clinical Veterinary Advisor and get the specific dosage for reptiles (can be found online).
 

deadheadvet

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Understood. I will keep my opinions to myself. The vet thing does not have value here.
 

Tom

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Understood. I will keep my opinions to myself. The vet thing does not have value here.

Please don't lump us all together. Many of us value your time and appreciate you sharing your extensive tortoise veterinary knowledge. I like your posts with pics of your gorgeous torts too!
 

Markw84

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I agree with @Tom I value and appreciate your - @deadheadvet - opinion and input every time you offer it. I often wait for your responses on medical issues here. The "vet thing" goes a long way here, especially combined with your experience and credentials when it comes to tortoises.
 

ShreddersMom

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Understood. I will keep my opinions to myself. The vet thing does not have value here.

I value a veterinary opinion. Greatly actually. That being said, I value the opinion of the doctor I work for as well, which is why I ended up leaving this thread. I don't know why you felt the need to argue about my tortoise having coccidia, as diagnosed by my trusted reptile veterinarian. I felt like you just wanted to argue, and were trying to tell me I was wrong, when you then stated that what my tortoise had been diagnosed with *was* indeed possible. My tortoise has been treated, and I have done some reading about the intranuclear coccidia. My doctor has also read up on it, and agrees that this is of no concern to my tortoise. My tortoise has responded well to two weeks worth of treatment, and has now started to graze and be a *real* tortoise for the first time in his life. He is also gaining a good amount of weight when he has previously had been pretty static, despite normal bloodwork and a healthy, abundant diet.

Thank you everyone for your input. I'm just glad Shredder is doing well and back on track! Repeat fecal was negative, and we will continue to monitor every month for a few rounds to make sure we aren't missing anything else!
 

deadheadvet

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I value a veterinary opinion. Greatly actually. That being said, I value the opinion of the doctor I work for as well, which is why I ended up leaving this thread. I don't know why you felt the need to argue about my tortoise having coccidia, as diagnosed by my trusted reptile veterinarian. I felt like you just wanted to argue, and were trying to tell me I was wrong, when you then stated that what my tortoise had been diagnosed with *was* indeed possible. My tortoise has been treated, and I have done some reading about the intranuclear coccidia. My doctor has also read up on it, and agrees that this is of no concern to my tortoise. My tortoise has responded well to two weeks worth of treatment, and has now started to graze and be a *real* tortoise for the first time in his life. He is also gaining a good amount of weight when he has previously had been pretty static, despite normal bloodwork and a healthy, abundant diet.

Thank you everyone for your input. I'm just glad Shredder is doing well and back on track! Repeat fecal was negative, and we will continue to monitor every month for a few rounds to make sure we aren't missing anything else!
Good news. Thanks for the update.
 
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