Coil bulb

zenoandthetortoise

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As to the subject, one source material was Men's Health (something I clearly never read, and can prove it, should it come to that) which itself quoted the ACGIH Threshold Limit Values, a copy of which lives on my desk. This is the annual compendium of quantified acceptable human exposures to chemical and physical hazards. Due to its species-specific focus, the numbers are of limited utility (i.e. reptile bulbs are supposed to generate UV unlike home use bulbs) but some of the mechanisms involved seem relevant.
For example, the primary hazard in broadband incoherent sources is photo keratitis, primarily in undetected wavelengths, as the aversion response is not triggered. This is counter intuitive in regards to UV reptile lamia as reptiles are tetrachromates and in fact see into the UVA and UVB. (Bowmaker, J.K. 1991. The evolution of vertebrate visual pigments and photoreceptors, p.63-81. In Cronly-Dillon, J.R. and Gregory, R.L. Vision and Visual Dysfunction Vol. 2: Evolution of the Eye and Visual System, CRC Press, Inc. Boca Raton, Florida.)

The closest relevant graph I have is of a starling, fortunately the relevant opsin is conserved so is illustrative.


View attachment 91834

In this case, the detection in the 300nm range corresponds with that which is biochemically active in Vitamin D synthesis. Given all that, the questions would be 1) if the UVB is too bright, why isn't it simply avoided? In this scenario, the expectation is that affected torts would burrow or hide, rather than suffer damage.
2) why is the capacity for damage intermittent and independent of adherence to operating instructions.

My hypothesis is that the answer lies in the UVC range, which is something I manage in germicidal laboratory lamps. UVC for all intents and purposes does not exist on earth due to strong scattering and absorption by O2 and O3. So in addition to higher energy, by virtue of shorter wavelength, UVC would be undetectable to the torts eye (and UVB meters) and worse, they would be attracted to the UVB that accompanies it.

As to the proximal cause of UVC production, the mechanism of phospors is to absorb short wavelength optical radiation and fluoresce longer wavelength, usually in a broader band. So damage or discrepancy in the coating would result narrow band, short wavelength emissions. Perhaps the small tube and coiled shape increase this likelihood?

This remains a conjecture, not a conclusion, but the upside is it's testable. So with that, I'm off to damage some CFL's :)

Cheers


And now, on with our story, with some qualification. First, I pursued this as an investigation of concept. I don't have the resources for an industry wide study. Also, the equipment used was either misappropriated from it's intended purpose or personally modified/built. We're talking about indicators here.
Anyway, first observations of cfl bulbs, both UVB and general use, include what's called 'ugly light'. The light spectrum generated has a few very high spikes with large gaps in between. (Note: my 'spectrometer' was constructed with a diffraction grating, and a telescope so no numbers for now. I'm trying to borrow one though). This will cause headaches and eye strain even with appropriate lumens ( in humans). Secondly, the flicker rate adds insult. It varies to the point of playing havoc with a light meter if it is direct read and not displaying median values. All of the above applies to every cfl I looked at, including general use.

As to the UVB; one of the persistent ideas I heard was that physical trauma to the bulb would change the intensity or wavelength. I only had a dozen or so to play with, but I could not generate this result and I tested all to failure. (Safety note: be careful trying this at home. Mercury vapor is definitely hazardous).

The next line of inquiry was my own supposition that UV CFLs might be generating short wavelength UVB and potentially UVC. This I was able to verify, albeit qualitatively. Put simply, my meter is tuned to germicidal lamps, so at the extreme low end of the scale, the numbers aren't reliable. It's like measuring a hatchling on a scale calibrated to pounds. The little bump isn't readable, but in the case of these bulbs, the bump shouldn't have been there at all.

Finally, the reflector hood creates essentially a parabolic mirror, which focuses the (at least in some cases) too-short wavelength light to a narrow beam. By altering hood and distance combinations, intensities could vary wildly between points only inches apart.

The most frustrating aspect was the inconsistency. I don't pretend that 14 bulbs constitutes a valid sample, but the typical brands of various ages were represented and the different intensities and wavelengths was striking.

The leading candidate then seems to be a combination of flicker/frequency that inhibits appropriate eye dilation, short wavelength emissions that are both high energy and invisible so don't trigger an aversion response, typically used with a reflector that exacerbates the potential for harm.

That's all I have for now.
Peace out!


Steve
 

THBfriend

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This is counter intuitive in regards to UV reptile lamia as reptiles are tetrachromates and in fact see into the UVA and UVB.
...
Given all that, the questions would be 1) if the UVB is too bright, why isn't it simply avoided?
Their eyes can see UVA, but not UVB, as far as I know.

My hypothesis is that the answer lies in the UVC range, which is something I manage in germicidal laboratory lamps.
The uvguide.co.uk people measured UVC output of lamps that caused eye problems and found that UVC was insignificant at reasonable distances.

Anyway, first observations of cfl bulbs, both UVB and general use, include what's called 'ugly light'. The light spectrum generated has a few very high spikes with large gaps in between.
The light emitted by the phosphors has a wider distribution (example: spectral output of UVB313 and UVA340 phosphors). Those thin spikes are the original mercury emissions, and that's a problem of fluorescent lamps in general, not just CFLs. The linear tube lamps produce the same "ugly light". Do you have a source for the claim that "spiky" spectral distributions cause headaches and eye strain? It's usually flicker that gets blamed for that, which brings us to:

Secondly, the flicker rate adds insult. It varies to the point of playing havoc with a light meter if it is direct read and not displaying median values. All of the above applies to every cfl I looked at, including general use.
Again, that's a problem of all fluorescent lamps in general. The linear tubes are actually worse here, they have a flicker rate of twice the mains frequency (e.g. 120 Hz in the US and 100 Hz in Europe) - unless they have an electronic ballast, which still isn't very common. CFLs on the other hand always have an integrated electronic ballast and use higher frequencies that flicker less. More about that here.

Anyway, thanks for your work. I agree with your conclusion that high energy, invisible UVB (and possibly UVC) light is a likely cause of the eye problems, with reflectors and insufficient distance exacerbating the potential for harm.
 
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tortoise_luvergirl

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Those coil bulbs are even dangerous for HUMANS eyes! I mentioned awhile back when I first started out that I had this type of bulb for my tortoise to my nuero opthamologist. he told me.. GET RID OF IT! you're destroying your eyes. I was also warned never to look at her UV tube either so I use my prescription sunglasses around UV sources. any CFL really has always given horrible headaches, I can't imagine what they do to reptiles.
 

THBfriend

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Those coil bulbs are even dangerous for HUMANS eyes!
Sorry, that is patently untrue, and if your opthamologist actually said that, then he/she should back it up with evidence / scientific studies. They are no more dangerous than dihydrogen monoxide, for example. ;)
As far as I know, there is no study that clearly links CFLs and migraines. It is true that flickering lights can induce headache in highly sensitive individuals. But as I wrote above, the flicker of CFLs should be several kilohertz and therefore be imperceptible. If a CFL flickers noticeably, then it's nearing the end of its life and should be replaced, or it's cheap crap and should be returned. Again, linear tube fluorescent lamps generally flicker much worse.
Looking at UV tubes as used for tortoises also won't damage your eyes, unless you're closer to them than a few feet and stare at them for extended periods of time. If you have a UV hypersensitivity condition, things are different, of course.

Your last sentence is curious, as it implies that reptiles are more sensitive than humans. Bold claim. Here's a study that showed chicken actually prefer the light of CFLs.
 

smarch

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I used CFLs for my first 2 years with Nank and didn't even know of the problems until this year when I decided to give it up. Although I wonder... my first CFL wasn't a coil, it was the ZooMed Repti-Sun and instead of a coil it was 2 attached loops, the same is in my fishtank at a smaller wattage. But Nank never had issues, I know the most issues seem to arise in hatchlings when they do arise, but either way after reading it I decided why risk it if people here have seen what it does and don't think its safe. I wouldn't consider a tube florescent at this point either, for a part of the reason I gave up the CFL that didn't regard health, I dot like fluorescent light on my eyes, so why should I force Nank to live under it? At least I can (kinda) escape it if I need to, he wouldn't.
 

tortoise_luvergirl

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Sorry, that is patently untrue, and if your opthamologist actually said that, then he/she should back it up with evidence / scientific studies. They are no more dangerous than dihydrogen monoxide, for example. ;)
As far as I know, there is no study that clearly links CFLs and migraines. It is true that flickering lights can induce headache in highly sensitive individuals. But as I wrote above, the flicker of CFLs should be several kilohertz and therefore be imperceptible. If a CFL flickers noticeably, then it's nearing the end of its life and should be replaced, or it's cheap crap and should be returned. Again, linear tube fluorescent lamps generally flicker much worse.
Looking at UV tubes as used for tortoises also won't damage your eyes, unless you're closer to them than a few feet and stare at them for extended periods of time. If you have a UV hypersensitivity condition, things are different, of course.

Your last sentence is curious, as it implies that reptiles are more sensitive than humans. Bold claim. Here's a study that showed chicken actually prefer the light of CFLs.
I can't stand flourescents of any nature.. So i got willow light fixtures with deep domes/covers so it will shine in her enclosure and not in my face since I share a room with her. I use a mercury vapor and a UV tube.. but try not to look at either since my eyes are very light sensitive. at night I use either a red or black heat bulb so we can both sleep.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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People here apparently believe that all compact fluorescent UV lamps are categorically bad. I'd like to see some proof for that.

As far as I know, certain older lamps had a flawed spectral output, too much short wavelength UV at dangerously high intensities. But that should have been fixed by now... Here's a website I found that has details.

Says who? Claims like that need to be backed by evidence.


Pity that you don't have a source. If I do a google search, I can find all sorts of stuff that isn't necessarily true...
Regular fluorescent tube lights aren't great either. They have long been known to cause headaches and eye strain for some people, because of their rather low flicker frequency.


I understand, and that's a very human behavior. But you have to admit that it's also a bit irrational. It's like saying "I had a crash with a GM car once, so I'll never use a GM car again".

THBFriend...

1. I would never drive a GM to start with.
2. I don't need any freaking link to some study that says coil bulbs are alright by someone who did not have an animal blinded by one of those SOB's.
This is old ****, but I personally, had 1 Sulcata yearling totally blinded, a pen mate was partially blinded and the third had eye damage
that lots of money and time fixed. I now care for blind box turtles and other special needs chelonia. So for me...3 blinded or semi blinded animals who are gonna have a difficult and probably poor quality life are more than enough proof.

quote
" you have to admit that it's also a bit irrational." end quote. Frankly, I am not the least bit irrational. I lived it, you've only talked about about it or read about it. Until you personally have had tortoises or turtles blinded by a coil bulb you have NO say in the matter. I have and I especially have seen the pain those bulbs caused in those animals. The pain is intense. Tony Stewart's eyes hurt so bad he would lay his head on the substrate and run at his nose, and froth at his mouth. It was horrid. So like I said, until YOU have lived it, you got nothing but bad opinion...

@THBfriend
@Tom
 
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THBfriend

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1. I would never drive a GM to start with.
2. I don't need any freaking link to some study that says coil bulbs are alright by someone who did not have an animal blinded by one of those SOB's.
This is old ****, but I personally, had 1 Sulcata yearling totally blinded, a pen mate was partially blinded and the third had eye damage
that lots of money and time fixed. I now care for blind box turtles and other special needs chelonia. So for me...3 blinded or semi blinded animals who are gonna have a difficult and probably poor quality life are more than enough proof.

quote
" you have to admit that it's also a bit irrational." end quote. Frankly, I am not the least bit irrational. I lived it, you've only talked about about it or read about it. Until you personally have had tortoises or turtles blinded by a coil bulb you have NO say in the matter. I have and I especially have seen the pain those bulbs caused in those animals. The pain is intense. Tony Stewart's eyes hurt so bad he would lay his head on the substrate and run at his nose, and froth at his mouth. It was horrid. So like I said, until YOU have lived it, you got nothing but bad opinion...

1. Then substitute that with any car that you do like.
2. Your entire post is a perfect example of irrationality, based on a logical fallacy. Just because I never wrote a novel or directed a movie doesn't mean that I have no right to criticize novels and movies, or that my opinions on the matter are "bad". I have presented the scientific facts about fluorescent lamps in this topic, and the fact remains that CFLs are not categorically dangerous. At least not more so than linear tube FLs, which share most of the characteristics, and some of which have also damaged reptile eyes.
 
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Ryan Kruse

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[/QUOTE] Alina, there are no studies that I know of. Who would fund it? There is no incentive for the manufacturer to spend tons of money to find out their bulbs are dangerous. They sell as many as they can make, so there is no incentive for them to look into it. There is no tortoise consumer group to fund such a study... All we have is each other and sharing our observations.[/QUOTE]

Welcome to the 21st century! Unfortunately this is how the world operates. It has been mentioned time and time again on this site about many different topics. The breeders (not all), pet stores, etc. just want the money. They are more than happy to sell you $300 worth of useless crap. Sadly, the pet stores are often "educated" by the big name brands that make the useless crap to begin with. It is a big cycle:(
 

Ryan Kruse

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THBFriend...
This is old ****, but I personally, had 1 Sulcata yearling totally blinded, a pen mate was partially blinded and the third had eye damage
that lots of money and time fixed. I now care for blind box turtles and other special needs chelonia. So for me...3 blinded or semi blinded animals who are gonna have a difficult and probably poor quality life are more than enough proof.

I want to ignore whether they are good or bad for a second. I have read that people have had problems with some bad CFL's. My question, and I am asking this to be educated, is how do you know it was the bulb? It seems to me that perhaps other factors may cause such issues? Again, I don't know you or your former situation. I am just asking!
 

cowgirl4407

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I dont have a study either but I ignored the info of this forum and lost a hatchling. I used the bulb on the breeders care sheet and lost one of my new little leos last week even with vet intervention. I bought the bulb that was recommended a week later all my little hatchlings behavior changed. I took out my other leo cause she was 4 inches and the other was only two inches. I thought she was being bullied by the bigger one when there behavior changed. My 4 inch is still here and doing great not hiding in the corner with her eyes closed but my other one passed. My vet who is a good rep vet couldnt find any parasites or explanation to her illness just told me to soak her and keep her warm. I use the long bulbs now I feel there is no other explanation other than it burnt the torts eyes cause he was eating and doing well before I introduced it. Two days after I put it in the enclosure they were hiding in the corner with there eyes closed. I left the little one in that enclosure with that bulb and the other tort recovered enough evidence for me.
 

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