Common keeping errors

[bradlee21887]

Hello and welcome! Can you share a link to a paper/article/iNaturalist observation/etc where such baby redfoots behaviour in the wild is documented? I know about their "gaze following" behaviour and that they can "swarm" the food source (e.g. carrion) but haven't seen reports of "caring about youth".

Yes, both of those are also true.

Here you go
Zoological Association of America

Moskovits, Debra K. (1985). "The Behavior and Ecology of the Two Amazonian Tortoises, Geochelone carbonaria and Geochelone denticulata, in Northwestern Brazil". University of Chicago. PhD Dissertation.

I never said they cared about the youth, but that they will snuggle up next to each other - maybe for protection? Don't get offended when I simply counter the statements posted here. Most of them are great in the article, but new keepers should be aware that there are many sources that conflict some of the information in the post, especially from experienced keepers. I simply stated two areas that are not accurate, one being you can't use wooden houses, and the other of redfoots being able to live together, which they can, but it's based on their size and temperament.

 

[wellington]

Yes, both of those are also true.

Here you go
Zoological Association of America

Moskovits, Debra K. (1985). "The Behavior and Ecology of the Two Amazonian Tortoises, Geochelone carbonaria and Geochelone denticulata, in Northwestern Brazil". University of Chicago. PhD Dissertation.

I never said they cared about the youth, but that they will snuggle up next to each other - maybe for protection? Don't get offended when I simply counter the statements posted here. Most of them are great in the article, but new keepers should be aware that there are many sources that conflict some of the information in the post, especially from experienced keepers. I simply stated two areas that are not accurate, one being you can't use wooden houses, and the other of redfoots being able to live together, which they can, but it's based on their size and temperament.

Not sure where anyone said wood houses can't be used. We have many, many members that use wood. With the higher humidity though, provisions need to be made so the wood doesn't rot quick.
As for tortoises snuggling, that's a human perception, in tortoise world, that's usually bullying. Putting tortoises of different ages together should depend on size, not age. A poorly kept 2 year old and a well kept 2 year old could have a very big size difference and that's what should be considered, not age, when putting tortoises together in groups.
Also enclosure size needs to be of consideration. Tortoises in the wild can get away, in captivity they can only go so far.
Your study above is very old and likely a lot has changed since then.

 

[bradlee21887]

Not sure where anyone said wood houses can't be used. We have many, many members that use wood. With the higher humidity though, provisions need to be made so the wood doesn't rot quick.
As for tortoises snuggling, that's a human perception, in tortoise world, that's usually bullying. Putting tortoises of different ages together should depend on size, not age. A poorly kept 2 year old and a well kept 2 year old could have a very big size difference and that's what should be considered, not age, when putting tortoises together in groups.
Also enclosure size needs to be of consideration. Tortoises in the wild can get away, in captivity they can only go so far.
Your study above is very old and likely a lot has changed since then.

Did you take the time to read it thoroughly? The information pertains to tortoises in the wild, not to keeping them in captivity—although, yes, guidelines for captivity have evolved over time. I specifically referenced size and temperament, not age.

Unfortunately, this highlights a common issue: many people skim through content or make assumptions based on a single detail, like a date in the source. Situations like this demonstrate why it’s essential for new keepers to conduct their own research rather than relying entirely on guides as absolute truth. I won't be replying to anything more on the matter.

 

[Anastasia 22]

Yes, both of those are also true.

Here you go
Zoological Association of America

Moskovits, Debra K. (1985). "The Behavior and Ecology of the Two Amazonian Tortoises, Geochelone carbonaria and Geochelone denticulata, in Northwestern Brazil". University of Chicago. PhD Dissertation.

I never said they cared about the youth, but that they will snuggle up next to each other - maybe for protection? Don't get offended when I simply counter the statements posted here. Most of them are great in the article, but new keepers should be aware that there are many sources that conflict some of the information in the post, especially from experienced keepers. I simply stated two areas that are not accurate, one being you can't use wooden houses, and the other of redfoots being able to live together, which they can, but it's based on their size and temperament.

I don't know much about RF, but my Russian male used "to fight" another Russian male that has the same size, age and probably the same personality. My boy just got crazy and bully when he saw another tortoise in his room. The thing was that I had a huge mirror on the wall, and my Russian tortoise fought his reflection. I removed the mirror, and everything is fine since then.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I disagree with some of this. There is no problem housing multiple redfoots together, and even at different sizes. A baby with an adult is a no no, but a 2 year old with a 5 year old is fine. You'll find the babies learn a lot from the older ones and snuggle them. Redfoots are one of the only species that do well like this. They are found in the wild doing the same thing.

The wooden houses are fine, been using them for a long time. You just put in a heat sensor PLUG to turn the power on and off the heater when it hits the desired temperature, put a humidity sensor PLUG that does the same, and a smart plug to turn off and on the uvb at sunset and sunrise.

The foggers are fine to use. Just keep it out of the enclosure and run the hose to the top pointing down. Put a dish below the house in the enclosure to catch any drips and put some plastic sheeting over the mesh screen up to the uvb and heater units. Keeps humidity fine using reptibark and other substrates at 80%+ and 80+ degrees. Been doing it for years.

Once you get your sensors set up right, you never have to touch it and it's all automated. If you follow this, you'll have no problems and no pyramiding. Just keep the bottom of the fogger clean and dump the dish of the water drops. Don't use that dish for water, use a porcelain heavy dish with tall sides they can't move or climb into.

I think just because you’ve personally done something for years and luckily had no issues, doesn’t cancel out all the issues people have had with these methods.

The wooden houses aren’t fine unless modified, you can’t house a baby in an open top and expect humidity to stay where it needs. I’m not saying they can’t be used with the right modifications, but for the money they cost, it’s not worth it when there’s much more efficient options out there.

I’ve never said anything about red foots not being able to live in groups, with the right male to female ratio it can work, but size does matter, not necessarily age.

Uv doesn’t need to be on 12 full hours, no tortoise gets 12hours of uv anywhere in the wild, it’s not physically possible, so why have it from sunrise to sunset?

Foggers are not ok, I’ve read far too many threads where the tortoise is having respiratory issues and a fogger is being used, it might not be as much of an issues with an open top, but again no baby should be in an open top. Also for a species like red foot, it’s not good having the top layer constantly dampened by foggers/misters. Doing it for years doesn’t cancel out the reported problems.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Don't get offended when I simply counter the statements posted here. Most of them are great in the article, but new keepers should be aware that there are many sources that conflict some of the information in the post, especially from experienced keepers. I simply stated two areas that are not accurate, one being you can't use wooden houses, and the other of redfoots being able to live together, which they can, but it's based on their size and temperament.

I do just want to add some clarity here, I wouldn’t consider myself an experienced keeper yet, folks have decades on me, I’m always transparent with that, but all my caresheets and this thread are based on the knowledge of some of the more well known, VERY experienced members here, all their knowledge is backed up with different findings, I’ve not come up with this myself.

I can only apologise if you got confused thinking I was saying red foot groups don’t work, they absolutely can! They are one of the most tolerant species when it comes to company, just not pairs, and like you say, it’s dependant on temperament and size, hopefully my further explanation on the wooden houses cleared up any confusion too

 

[Tom]

I disagree with some of this. There is no problem housing multiple redfoots together, and even at different sizes.

No one has said they can't be housed in groups. The advice is against pairs, and for good reason.

You'll find the babies learn a lot from the older ones and snuggle them. Redfoots are one of the only species that do well like this.

You say snuggle, I say they are crowding to intimidate a conspecific resource competitor out of the territory. No sense arguing this one. We are not going to agree. What I will argue is that RFs are one of the only species that do well in groups. All tortoise species do well in groups as babies and immature juveniles. Most species do well in groups as adults too with respect to group size and sex ratios.

The wooden houses are fine, been using them for a long time.

Wooden houses rot, mold and leak. If that is fine in your house, so be it. I don't think most people will think that is "fine". I don't. I prefer to use and recommend materials that don't rot, mold and leak in my house, but to each his own.

The foggers are fine to use. Just keep it out of the enclosure and run the hose to the top pointing down. Put a dish below the house in the enclosure to catch any drips and put some plastic sheeting over the mesh screen up to the uvb and heater units. Keeps humidity fine using reptibark and other substrates at 80%+ and 80+ degrees. Been doing it for years.

It's not good for tortoise to be breathing in those micro-droplets. While you may not recognize this as a problem, other people do. That mist is not the same thing as humidity. Again, using the correct type of enclosure, made of the correct materials is a better way to go than using an enclosure that will rot, mold and leak, and needing a humidifier and a plastic sheet laid on top to function properly. You've been doing it that way for years. I did it that way in the past too. Have you ever done it the way that has been recommended here? If not, its kind of hard to debate the pros and cons of each method, isn't it?

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I won't be replying to anything more on the matter.

I find that sad and disappointing. I respect your decision, but think conversation is always fruitful in terms of keepers getting information. New and old.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Yes, both of those are also true.

Here you go
Zoological Association of America

Moskovits, Debra K. (1985). "The Behavior and Ecology of the Two Amazonian Tortoises, Geochelone carbonaria and Geochelone denticulata, in Northwestern Brazil". University of Chicago. PhD Dissertation.

I never said they cared about the youth, but that they will snuggle up next to each other - maybe for protection? Don't get offended when I simply counter the statements posted here. Most of them are great in the article, but new keepers should be aware that there are many sources that conflict some of the information in the post, especially from experienced keepers. I simply stated two areas that are not accurate, one being you can't use wooden houses, and the other of redfoots being able to live together, which they can, but it's based on their size and temperament.

Yes, thank you for sharing this paper. I'll re-read it once more, perhaps I've missed the details when looked at it a while ago.

I'm not offended in any way, just the opposite - it's always interesting to learn something new.

If you use wooden enclosures - what kind of wood, how do you treat it? What's an average lifespan of wood?

As of "snuggling" I've personally seen only passive-aggressive variants of this behaviour (blocking the other tortoise or forcing it to leave). It was in a group of three RFs - 3-4" in size. In that sense it wasn't different from other species behaviour. I can understand why mammals snuggle (to keep themselves warm) but for ectotherms it doesn't make much sense.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you for the input folks! Friendly discussion on such topics is such a helpful way for us all to learn

 

[Jen sorcher]

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences

I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common things to avoid, with a brief reasoning why, I encourage anyone to do more in depth research on this forum into any of the points raised if your interested in doing so

First up, inappropriate housing
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Incorrect temperatures
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Bad diets
View attachment 377310
View attachment 377325
Incorrect/dangerous equipment
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View attachment 377313

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Bad substrates
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The wrong source of purchase/information
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Not enough soaks
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Free roaming
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Dangerous cohabitation
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Bad water dishes
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Dangerous animal interaction
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View attachment 377336

please do feel free to add any you think I’ve missed below!

Does anyone have the correct things to do?? What bulbs & mister and heater I should use for red footed tortoise ?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Does anyone have the correct things to do?? What bulbs & mister and heater I should use for red footed tortoise ?

Yes absolutely! This housing thread covers correct equipment(uvb, heating bulbs, lighting etc), correct levels, importance of a closed chamber for younger tortoises and red foots(only way to maintain the humidity you need), appropriately maintaining the humidity(they’re prone to shell rot so this is important, I wouldn’t use a mister/humidifier ), safe substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything, a diet list and a really handy diet link to check out! If going with a greenhouse, the lower the ceiling height, whilst still allowing for recommended bulb height, the better!

Young red foot/ cherryhead set up

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information on an effective example of a starter enclosure for a red foot/cherry head😊 Care advice for these guys is painfully behind, fb pages, YouTube, pet stores, they’re all repeating the same outdated advice, this forum is made of...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes some different closed chamber options too! Some tend to work more efficiently than others

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

Hope they help!

 

[Miranda75]

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences

I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common things to avoid, with a brief reasoning why, I encourage anyone to do more in depth research on this forum into any of the points raised if your interested in doing so

First up, inappropriate housing
View attachment 377308
Incorrect temperatures
View attachment 377309
Bad diets
View attachment 377310
View attachment 377325
Incorrect/dangerous equipment
View attachment 377311
View attachment 377312
View attachment 377313

View attachment 377314

View attachment 377315
View attachment 377316
View attachment 377317
Bad substrates
View attachment 377318
View attachment 377319
View attachment 377320
View attachment 377321
View attachment 377322
View attachment 377323
View attachment 377324

The wrong source of purchase/information
View attachment 377326
View attachment 377327
Not enough soaks
View attachment 377328
Free roaming
View attachment 377329
Dangerous cohabitation
View attachment 377330
View attachment 377331
View attachment 377332
Bad water dishes
View attachment 377333
Dangerous animal interaction
View attachment 377337
View attachment 377336

please do feel free to add any you think I’ve missed below!

So where are the recommendations of what to buy

 

[144 Grandpa Turtle]

You did a great job and lots of work, but I still Don't agree with store bought calcium because you don't know what chemicals they may put in it I just like and use dried ground up eggshells

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

So where are the recommendations of what to buy

For your little one

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

You did a great job and lots of work, but I still Don't agree with store bought calcium because you don't know what chemicals they may put in it I just like and use dried ground up eggshells

Very valid input and much appreciated!

 

[ryan57]

You did a great job and lots of work, but I still Don't agree with store bought calcium because you don't know what chemicals they may put in it I just like and use dried ground up eggshells

Until the eggs are from bird flu chickens or the cuddlebones are given to a tortoise with a shell food allergy. lol.

 

[144 Grandpa Turtle]

Two years ago, at the turtle and tortoise conference they talked about the larger tortoises chocking on small parts of the cuddle stones! But please we are all alouded to do what we want, and I don't trust big business to be honest .

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Two years ago, at the turtle and tortoise conference they talked about the larger tortoises chocking on small parts of the cuddle stones! But please we are all alouded to do what we want, and I don't trust big business to be honest .

That is of course always possible, which is why I take mine out when they get too small.

 

[Pocobear6]

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences

I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common things to avoid, with a brief reasoning why, I encourage anyone to do more in depth research on this forum into any of the points raised if your interested in doing so

First up, inappropriate housing
View attachment 377308
Incorrect temperatures
View attachment 377309
Bad diets
View attachment 377310
View attachment 377325
Incorrect/dangerous equipment
View attachment 377311
View attachment 377312
View attachment 377313

View attachment 377314

View attachment 377315
View attachment 377316
View attachment 377317
Bad substrates
View attachment 377318
View attachment 377319
View attachment 377320
View attachment 377321
View attachment 377322
View attachment 377323
View attachment 377324

The wrong source of purchase/information
View attachment 377326
View attachment 377327
Not enough soaks
View attachment 377328
Free roaming
View attachment 377329
Dangerous cohabitation
View attachment 377330
View attachment 377331
View attachment 377332
Bad water dishes
View attachment 377333
Dangerous animal interaction
View attachment 377337
View attachment 377336

please do feel free to add any you think I’ve missed below!

My pleasure

Thank you for this information. My whole tortoise set up is wrong. What is the ideal diet for a herman tortoise? What substrate shoild I be using? What kind of lamp? Should I use a heat pad? My tortoise is in an open top enclosure as he out grew the terrarium. Seems like we should put him back until he is bigger. He is nearly 3.is there a list on here of what we should be using?