Could Gomez have drowned?

[thatrebecca]

It's a very hot day today here in L.A., and my hubby called me at work to say that he had just given our CDT enclosure a good soaking and got worried when he couldn't find one of our torts -- Gomez. He found Gomez, who is 6 inches, under a boulder where he had dug himself a little makeshift burrow. (Gomez has plenty of other hides in his enclosure, but decided to dig himself a new one, I guess). Anyway, when hubby lifted up the rock, Gomez was submerged in water, with just the tip of his shell showing. Worried he might have drowned the tort, hubby pulled Gomez out and placed him under a tree in the back yard to inspect him. Almost immediately, Gomez started roaming around the yard as usual, munching weeds so I guess he's fine.

My question is, could Gomez have drowned in that situation? How long could he have stayed submerged? Hubby said Gomez had the ability to climb out of the flooded burrow, but didn't. Did he not move cause he was asleep, wallowing comfily or something else?

 

[Yvonne G]

Tortoises can hold their breath for a very long time. I took one of my tortoises in to the vet to have a very large abscess excised and he called me back later in the day to come get her. She wouldn't breathe in when he placed the cone over her nose to put her to sleep.

 

[Saleama]

I came home one day and found my baby boxie tipped in his water bowl with his head completly submerged and only his little butt above water. He had wiggled into the rocks trying to turn over. I just knew he was dead but he was not. I heard somewhere that turtles can breath through their butts and it would appear that Little J Swatt either did that or had not been tipped for very long.

 

[luvpetz27]

I am very sorry this happened.

 

[Madkins007]

I came home one day and found my baby boxie tipped in his water bowl with his head completly submerged and only his little butt above water. He had wiggled into the rocks trying to turn over. I just knew he was dead but he was not. I heard somewhere that turtles can breath through their butts and it would appear that Little J Swatt either did that or had not been tipped for very long.

To clarify the 'breathe through the butt' bit- this is something that the Fitzroy River turtle (Rheodytes leukops) and maybe a couple others can do. It has enlarged sacks (bursae) off the cloaca that can help absorb oxygen out of water. Most turtles can do this a little in their cloacas or throats, mostly when hibernating underwater in super-oxygenated water and reduced oxygen needs due to the hibernating state, but no tortoise is known to do this much.

However, they CAN hold their breaths for so long when resting (for really cool physiological reasons) that they are really hard to anesthetize with gas. Tortoises of many species have been found alive and well in flooded burrows. Some researchers figure part of the reason they can do it is that there are often air pockets at the top of the chamber they are sleeping in. Small breaths can enable them to be perfectly comfortable in that situation.

 

[thatrebecca]

I came home one day and found my baby boxie tipped in his water bowl with his head completly submerged and only his little butt above water. He had wiggled into the rocks trying to turn over. I just knew he was dead but he was not. I heard somewhere that turtles can breath through their butts and it would appear that Little J Swatt either did that or had not been tipped for very long.

To clarify the 'breathe through the butt' bit- this is something that the Fitzroy River turtle (Rheodytes leukops) and maybe a couple others can do. It has enlarged sacks (bursae) off the cloaca that can help absorb oxygen out of water. Most turtles can do this a little in their cloacas or throats, mostly when hibernating underwater in super-oxygenated water and reduced oxygen needs due to the hibernating state, but no tortoise is known to do this much.

However, they CAN hold their breaths for so long when resting (for really cool physiological reasons) that they are really hard to anesthetize with gas. Tortoises of many species have been found alive and well in flooded burrows. Some researchers figure part of the reason they can do it is that there are often air pockets at the top of the chamber they are sleeping in. Small breaths can enable them to be perfectly comfortable in that situation.

Fascinating, thanks. I swear every day I learn something new about these guys that amazes me. They're pretty remarkable creatures.

 

[ascott]

Please also understand that torts have and do drown...there are torts that are found submerged and drowned in burrows...so please keep this in mind, yes, it is completely possible for a tortoise to drown....however, it would take some time for this to occur....I don't mean to be bummer but don't want anyone to misunderstand and think that torts can not drown...

 

[thatrebecca]

Please also understand that torts have and do drown...there are torts that are found submerged and drowned in burrows...so please keep this in mind, yes, it is completely possible for a tortoise to drown....however, it would take some time for this to occur....I don't mean to be bummer but don't want anyone to misunderstand and think that torts can not drown...

Got it. Do you think he would have climbed out when he needed air, Angela? That's what I don't get. He wasn't blocked in by dirt. Could he have been asleep and/or liking it and that's why he stayed submerged?

 

[WillTort2]

He could have enjoyed cooling off; but, he could also have been scared to come out. I think when he needed air he would have crawled to the surface if it was a short distance away. But tortoises do like to wedge themselves into a tight spot to protect from predators.

I doubt that the water from a hose would have stayed in place long enough to drown the tort. They don't need much of an air space.

 

[ascott]

Got it. Do you think he would have climbed out when he needed air, Angela? That's what I don't get. He wasn't blocked in by dirt. Could he have been asleep and/or liking it and that's why he stayed submerged?

Hmmm, this is one of those moments that it would be fantastic if we spoke tortoise huh? All I can do is go by my personal experiences with the torts I have encountered.

I do believe that a tort will "wait out" a situation that they find themselves in....it can either work out well or not so well...

True story;

So, one of the men folk here, Ghamara, he is the newest dude to take up residence here---he was stolen from the desert by some lady who has ripped many from the desert...a Game Warden I know was the one who encountered her---she had done it before and was threatened....well, that did no good, she seems to have "legally" acquired a CDT permit/tag...of which I believe she just moved from one tort to another...and along the way she ripped a male and a female from the desert...well, the male is Ghamara who lives here now and also a female who found her demise under the tire of a pizza delivery guys truck...so Ghamara was turned over to me and here he remains registered now to my name/address...so there is the lay out story for Ghamara.

Well, the first year he was set to brumate I let him do his thing, I had picked a spot in the yard, began a starter hole (based on all that I know, and realized what a dumb stupid human I truly was...lol) and so he went along with me and too up residence in this master planned community...well, little did he or I know that the spot was in a flood way (well, had not rained here much for many years, so who knew?) well, I was at work---I worked at a natural wildlife area/campers park, and it began to rain, as NOAA warned, and rained and rained...well we were all on tractors trying to keep roadways open in the park for the campers to escape with their rigs---and had been doing this for hours....I was sitting up in a backhoe watching the way the water was moving and it suddenly flashed in my head my property--and my stomach turned, I suddenly felt sick...I realized that the spot that I placed that trusting tortoise to winter rest was in a spot that would act like a fluvial fan and he was in the bottom...wholly crap! But I was in a spot where I was trying t assure people made it out safely....and my boss at the time came up to run down the next plan of action and he looked at me and said "what the hell do you see" I quickly rattled off to him what was on my mind and he told me to leave and traded places with me.... I sped home to find this tort submerged... I dropped to my knees in the water and mud and began to pull away the earth -- I got to him, he was standing vertical, leaning his body against the walls of the dirt ...eyes closed and in the somewhat sleepy state (as it was the state of brumation he was in)...he did not even move---as I reached for him, his entire body dripped with cold rain water and mud...I put him against me and quickly took him inside and wrapped him in a cotton towel and put him in a rubbermaid tote and put that tote into the closet that is now all of the men folks brumating space...he remained there the rest of the winter ...he was crusted with mud, but he was safe and eventually dry--but he was safe.

So, after a couple more failed attempts to let him do his own thing for winter...he and the other men folk reside indoors for brumation...he did however, out smart me this last winter and he was the only one that brumated in his natural dug burrow...but the last two winters did not provide much rain...so he was quite proud of himself when he strolled on out at spring...little bugger...

Yes, I do believe if the situation is right and the weather is just so...and you catch the tort on a not so spry day...that yes, they can absolutely drown....some folks will put a hose down a hole to flush a tort out----well, I always hope for the torts sake that all is just perfect and they don't get turned around and such and don't make it out....I would be careful to make places for the tort to have high ground...

Now, in each of the mens yards, their alternate hide is built on high grounds...and when the fall months come round... I will make it as impossible as I can to make sure that they can only access there high rises....

 

[sibi]

Wow, Angela, that was some story! I'm so glad I don't have a tort that brumates.

 

[thatrebecca]

Wow, Angela, that is an amazing story. I can see why you brumate inside now. The tort 'wait it out' strategy is one I've noticed and wondered about. In Gomez's case, because the water would soak into the ground in a matter of moments, I think he would have been fine. But obviously in a heavy rainstorm he wouldn't. One other tricky thing about torts as pets -- unlike a whimpering dog or cat, they can't tell you audibly when they're in trouble. Sometimes I wish they could just bark or something.

 

[Tom]

And that is why I make my own burrows for them, if I want them to be underground during the rainy season (my sulcatas), and why I also hibernate them (any species that hibernates) safely indoors.

 

[ascott]

In all fairness, the burrow that he was almost done in by was one that I designed..the burrow he brumated in this last winter was all of his own design...I am sure it is much much better with its twists and turns and different elevations within....but, because i am like an old dog and never forget....I make them come indoors for brumation....well, we will see if Ghamara outsmarts me again this year...lol...

 

[Tom]

Fair enough. Its just that I know of wayyyyyy to many reptiles that have died when allowed to dig in and hibernate on their own outside. And conversely, I have never lost a single one when safely hibernating indoors.

 

[ascott]

Fair enough. Its just that I know of wayyyyyy to many reptiles that have died when allowed to dig in and hibernate on their own outside. And conversely, I have never lost a single one when safely hibernating indoors.

Oh absolutely Tom....it is even a problem in the wild....so indoors it is ---well, unless one (Ghamara) digs from the top of the ground a drop in hole to get past the blockade I placed on and around the burrow entrance...he is a smarty pants for sure..and such a pompus look on his face when he came out from his rest...God bless him...

 

[Tom]

I think we agree on most things most of the time. I really just wanted to point that out for the benefit of other readers who might be considering what to do with their tortoises as winter gets closer.

I think your DT advice is awesome!

 

[ascott]

Right back at ya Tom