Curiosity and legality question...

[Torty Mom]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

2 of my hatchlings came from local farmers who found them on their land and were turned into our cttc chapter. I am sure I will be getting a few more in. I REALLY wish we could raise them to be 3 or 4 years old and then release them back into the wild. I think it would be awesome. I would love for Lou to be a daddy one day. I got Penny from a friend who has had her torts for years and years and she like the others were hatched from mother earth. I see both sides of the fence. Like the IRS says maybe it's a "GRAY" area.........

 

[dmmj]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

last time I checked there are breeding programs in CA but they are highly regulated, and very few permits are issued, usually only to biologists in cooperation with the state.

 

[ascott]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

Mary Anne, perfectly worded and a wish I absolutely share with you .....

 

[Torty Mom]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

Biologists shmyologists, I can do the same thing they can do and my babies would be cuter! In case you guys and gals didn't know LOU is the handsomest tortie ever and would make the bestest babies ever!

If you have a small hatchling community that has not been exposed to another "Older" tortie, I think it would be a win win situation!

 

[Maggie Cummings]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

I live in Oregon and know of a Gopherus agassizii who lives on the Oregon Coast in a very wet environment as it rains more there than here and the Coast has the ocean so things are wet all the time anyhow, this desert tortoise has lived there quite happily for what I saw and he is 35 years old, so he is living in a way that is not normal for him and he's beautiful and very healthy...
It can be done and we should be allowed to have them in other states...

Also the sun rarely shines here.

 

[ascott]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

Mary Anne, I am always quietly apologizing to my four handsome guys....sorry that who ever it was that lifted them from their home did so and I often wonder if the three big guys I have had had at least a chance to participate in reproduction prior to them being removed from the wild....hope so hope so hope so....and i agree, Lou would make handsome hatchlings

 

[Torty Mom]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

Angela, but you have to remember they have it good with you. Free food and water!! Woot woot!! Not going weeks and weeks without food or water must totally suck on any level. So you are lucky to have them and they are lucky to have you. That's how I feel about Lou. It's paradise. I wish I had more land. I would have a bunch!!

I have another idea! Not that anyone is going to listen to a "Tortie Mom" from Bakersfield California, but I have one anyway!

Since we have to have permits, why can't those peeps apply for a "special permit" that would allow for interstate hosting. Let's say California would still "Own" the tort but he lives at Jacqui's house. Let's say she would have to provide info kinda like a home inspection, or torts that were taken from their homeland can be returned to their homeland or Mary Anne's house like the tortie in Georgia. I would take him in a second, so would a few others. Again a win, win for the species.

I think they are doing the GT's a disservice, I agree with you too, there should be exceptions.

 

[ascott]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

.. ..

 

[jackrat]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

Only our government could come up with something like saying don't allow endangered animals to reproduce. DUH

 

[Madkins007]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

If you look at this from the standpoint of the people trying to protect an actively endangered species, who are trying hard to make the right decisions and have decades of history of people doing very bad things for very good reasons, most of this makes perfect sense.

Released captives (even those that were originally WC) have released dangerous pathogens in the wild populations and even caused local extinctions in many kinds of animals, even desert tortoises. Because of this, there is an effort to create a 'Chinese wall' between the truly wild populations and those torts that may possibly have been exposed to something dangerous for the rest of them.

The more 'uncontrolled' desert torts there are in captivity, the greater the chance of releases and escapes, and the more buying/selling there will be- all of which can lead to possibly severe problems for the wild populations.

It might make sense to find a way to permanently identify 'captive' desert or related torts, then allow a relatively free trade outside of their range, but the environmental and protective groups involved do not put a high importance on tortoise keeping and are busy enough as it is.

 

[ascott]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

Madkins007 I personally hope there is never a way for yet another wild species of tortoise to be turned into a pet.....I believe that there should be no further species subject to the free trade market....it would be yet another horrific display of humans thinking they know best. I personally would like my son and his children and their children to have that awe inspiring moment in life when out in the wild hiking coming across a wild gopherus gracing them with a siting of a wild, beautiful, resourceful, majestic creature that they will scramble for their camera to capture a moment in time....that is what the beauty of nature should be appreciated for.... I love our state reptile...in all of his splendor, beauty and there is a reason they have that intense...regal...knowledgeable piercing look in their eye....if not corralled and cornered...if not forced to submit to captivity...they truly can survive and thrive....but if forced to comply...if forced to submit...if forced to give up all that make them gladiators of the desert....if forced to survive and not thrive...then pets they will be....IMHO

 

[Torty Mom]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

Agreed

 

[chairman]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

I'm sorry if I'm hijacking the thread a bit, but I have a similar curiousity and legality question about some Gopherus tortoises. Anyone seen the 2011 CBB Gopherus berlandieri for sale on fauna? http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267017
There you've got a Gopherus species available for sale from Mexico that is apparently able to be both sold and sold across national/state lines. I have to admit that I'm more than a bit tempted by these guys, but something about the situation just seems incredibly illegal to me. However, if it is legal, anyone wanting a gopherus outside of their natural zone could get one. Anyone hear anything about this particular situation?

 

[dmmj]

RE: Curiousity and legality question...

Gopherus berlandieri, Is listed as the texas torotise, so I would imagine it can't be sold in the US in mexico is another matter. As for shipping across the state lines I would imagine it is illegal to do so, despite what the ad on fauna says. anyone else have any thoughts on the matter.

 

[Kristina]

I saw that ad, and if it is legal, I would jump on it myself.

 

[ascott]

Below is a portion of their article, simply for reference (from the World Chelonian Trust)...also, it appears that there are ways to obtain the permit from CITES to export as they allow set numbers per year....so very sad IMHO

"For many of the older keepers in the United States this was the very first tortoise that they owned. In the late 1950s and early 1960s, they could be found in many of the “five and dimes” of the day such as SS Kresge (now Kmart) and FW Woolworths (now Footlocker) for as little as five dollars apiece. With the knowledge of how to provide for tortoises in those days being virtually non-existent, sadly nearly all of these “first” tortoises died, much like the stores that sold them.
The Texas tortoise (Gopherus berlandieri) is found from South-Central Texas in the United States southward into the Mexican States of Coahuila, Nuevo Leon, and Tamaulipas. It is the smallest of the Gopherus species growing to only about 8.5 inches (22 cm) SCL. The species is listed internationally as a CITES II species and is federally listed in the United States under the Endangered Species Act. Because of this protected status, it is illegal to collect a Texas tortoise from the wild in the United States. The only legal manner in which to acquire a Texas tortoise is by adopting one from a state recognized organization or to be given a hatchling from a breeding captive animal. Again, check with your state wildlife agency BEFORE you consider adopting an animal of this species as United States federal law protects it."