Current consensus on humidity

[Redfootguy123]

Obviously, information is updated as new discoveries are made. However, I’m curious about the communities current consensus on humidity for adult redfoots in closed chamber enclosures; some of the older guides on the forum + some of the consensus on older (and some newer) threads indicate that the current consensus is that humidity in the 80-99% range is ok, if not ideal.

However, guidelines from the NAVO and ARAV suggest an ideal range of 60-80% humidity in adults, coming out to an average of ~70% humidity (with swings to highs and lows, including occasional swings into the 90%’s). Additionally, the body of literature on husbandry indicates that husbandry issues, including excess in humidity, can contribute to pathology; in some cases/case reports, it is hypothesized that consistent excesses in humidity may have contributed to RI & pneumonia.

So, what are y’alls thoughts on this? Has the consensus on the forum already changed (see: the most recent guide at the top of the pinned threads), or is the consensus still that highs (e.g., above 80% consistently; see: thread replies over time about RF humidity) is ideal?

 

[mojo_1]

Well for juvenile and hatchlings it's ideally 84% so I don't see how an adult would require more. They are capable of handling bigger swings then juvenile redfoots

 

[Redfootguy123]

Well for juvenile and hatchlings it's ideally 84% so I don't see how an adult would require more. They are capable of handling bigger swings then juvenile redfoots

Just to clarify I agree with a 60-80% RH range, just curious about current thoughts/consensus of forum members on the subject

Although I have read research that suggests hatchlings require higher humidity than adults. It was a bit older though (~2018) so not sure if it still holds up; my guy hasn’t been a hatchling for a while so haven’t read anything on them in some time.

 

[mojo_1]

Just

to clarify I agree with a 60-80% RH range, just curious about current thoughts/consensus of forum members on the subject

Although I have read research that suggests hatchlings require higher humidity than adults. It was a bit older though (~2018) so not sure if it still holds up; my guy hasn’t been a hatchling for a while so haven’t read anything on them in some time.

If memory serves me correctly. They can handle dips to 70% but staying around 80% is preferred.

 

[turtlesteve]

The threads referencing 80-99% are usually geared towards care of hatchlings and juveniles. 70% humidity or thereabouts is great for adults but is too low for hatchlings.

Higher humidity can contribute to respiratory infections when temperatures are too low, but is generally fine when temperatures are optimal. If temps swing low it needs to be more dry. In general many tortoise species inhabit places where rainfall is seasonal and peaks in summer.

There is a lot of nuance and it usually doesn’t all get captured in one place.

Steve

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

@Anyfoot might have thoughts on this.

 

[Redfootguy123]

The threads referencing 80-99% are usually geared towards care of hatchlings and juveniles. 70% humidity or thereabouts is great for adults but is too low for hatchlings.

Higher humidity can contribute to respiratory infections when temperatures are too low, but is generally fine when temperatures are optimal. If temps swing low it needs to be more dry. In general many tortoise species inhabit places where rainfall is seasonal and peaks in summer.

There is a lot of nuance and it usually doesn’t all get captured in one place.

Steve

While the situation is different for free range redfoots for a variety of reasons, as far as I’ve read, as well as based on conversations with exotic vets specializing in birds and reptiles (including one that has redfoots), the less developed respiratory system (e.g., poorly developed mucociliary escalator, less developed ability to filter water from air) means that if humidity is consistently too high in closed chamber situations, even with adequate temperatures, it can contribute to RI and pneumonia. It is also part of why some indoor redfoots have the squeak that you might sometimes see in healthy redfoots without RI.

Specifically talking about closed system indoor enclosures here though, where exacts are more important due to the lack of corrective factors one might find in nature with free range torts.

Edit: I do agree w/ it being fine for out in nature though. Realized my post may have come across as hostile, don’t mean it to just trying to relay what I’ve learned through journals & conversations w/ qualified vets…there’s definitely a lot of nuance lol

 

[COmtnLady]

The Tortoise Forum is a work in progress. You will read older threads here discussing the learning curves that have brought TF to the levels understood currently. Various members have raised thousands (no exaggeration) of hatchlings and adults under various controlled conditions, and have come to the recommendations now used.

For Red Foots it is 82-84% humidity and 82-84F/28-29C temps for adults - and higher with other specifics for hatchlings. This must be inside a closed chamber due to the humidity dissipating if there is no "top" sealing in the humidity. Closed chambers also help stabilize the temperatures.

Because this advancing learning has gone on here, and because of the old and inaccurate info just about everywhere else, it is good to take any info from outside sources with more than a grain of salt.

From a personal perspective - I've only had my Red Foot six years, all but the first few months of which (when I was using info from the random and questionable sources elsewhere) she has been in a closed chamber with 84% humidity and 84F-plus a degree occasionally temperature as recommended here. She is thriving. There are variables that could be influencing those results, but generally, I trust the info here because of the empirical evidence I see every day.

 

[turtlesteve]

While the situation is different for free range redfoots for a variety of reasons, as far as I’ve read, as well as based on conversations with exotic vets specializing in birds and reptiles (including one that has redfoots), the less developed respiratory system (e.g., poorly developed mucociliary escalator, less developed ability to filter water from air) means that if humidity is consistently too high in closed chamber situations, even with adequate temperatures, it can contribute to RI and pneumonia. It is also part of why some indoor redfoots have the squeak that you might sometimes see in healthy redfoots without RI.

Specifically talking about closed system indoor enclosures here though, where exacts are more important due to the lack of corrective factors one might find in nature with free range torts.

Edit: I do agree w/ it being fine for out in nature though. Realized my post may have come across as hostile, don’t mean it to just trying to relay what I’ve learned through journals & conversations w/ qualified vets…there’s definitely a lot of nuance lol

I will not speak for everyone, but I’ve not experienced the issues you speak of with regards to closed chambers with near 100% humidity causing respiratory issues, in redfoots or in “sensitive” species like Indian star tortoises. The line of reasoning you present is entirely speculative (inferring that the less developed respiratory system confers problems with handling 100% humidity). Is there any published data to support it? The counter example would be reptile species that live in swamps where humidity is nearly always 100%.

I have on the other hand, experienced respiratory infections that onset when temperatures are consistently too low or too high, regardless of humidity. It is plausible to me that humidity could be a contributing factor (but not a cause) in such cases. The main issue at play is probably that reptilian immune systems are less functional outside of a range of optimal body temperature.

One example: I have lost young chaco tortoises during late summer when temps stayed in the high 80s to mid 90’s at all times. One was necropsied and had nothing other than bacterial respiratory infection found. Counterintuitively perhaps, but typically I have lower humidity this time of year because our weather is often dry and I have to vent closed chambers a little bit to keep temps down. Keeping hatchlings and juveniles cooler during this time of year has resolved the issue and I have had no additional losses.

Right now we (as a community) are learning things much faster than they can be studied and appear in veterinary organizations, journal articles, etc. When I gave a presentation on Austwickia chelonae at the TSA conference, for example, I heard from veterinarians in the audience (among the most experienced turtle vets in the US) that many were not even aware of the disease at all. This is despite the fact that UF has a PCR test for it, and we’ve been seeing outbreaks for years in captivity, and there are several publications on it including in conservation settings. The speed of information dissemination in the reptile veterinarian community is extremely slow, and the textbooks seem to be the last thing to get updated.

Steve

 

[Redfootguy123]

I will not speak for everyone, but I’ve not experienced the issues you speak of with regards to closed chambers with near 100% humidity causing respiratory issues, in redfoots or in “sensitive” species like Indian star tortoises. The line of reasoning you present is entirely speculative (inferring that the less developed respiratory system confers problems with handling 100% humidity). Is there any published data to support it? The counter example would be reptile species that live in swamps where humidity is nearly always 100%.

I have on the other hand, experienced respiratory infections that onset when temperatures are consistently too low or too high, regardless of humidity. It is plausible to me that humidity could be a contributing factor (but not a cause) in such cases. The main issue at play is probably that reptilian immune systems are less functional outside of a range of optimal body temperature.

One example: I have lost young chaco tortoises during late summer when temps stayed in the high 80s to mid 90’s at all times. One was necropsied and had nothing other than bacterial respiratory infection found. Counterintuitively perhaps, but typically I have lower humidity this time of year because our weather is often dry and I have to vent closed chambers a little bit to keep temps down. Keeping hatchlings and juveniles cooler during this time of year has resolved the issue and I have had no additional losses.

Right now we (as a community) are learning things much faster than they can be studied and appear in veterinary organizations, journal articles, etc. When I gave a presentation on Austwickia chelonae at the TSA conference, for example, I heard from veterinarians in the audience (among the most experienced turtle vets in the US) that many were not even aware of the disease at all. This is despite the fact that UF has a PCR test for it, and we’ve been seeing outbreaks for years in captivity, and there are several publications on it including in conservation settings. The speed of information dissemination in the reptile veterinarian community is extremely slow, and the textbooks seem to be the last thing to get updated.

Steve

Sorry I might not have relayed the info (in terms of how I got it) very clearly; it is definitely a bit speculative, and a lot of it comes from hypothesizing in case reports + info from some of the more specialized & experienced exotic vets in my state.

There is no current published research I know of partially due to the agonizingly long time it takes to publish (why’s it always reviewer 2 that wants more edits). & just to clarify w/ overly high, I’m talking months of consistent >90-95% RH throughout the entire enclosure with few to no dips, including on the cool side. These specific conditions where it is hypothesized that harm may be caused are likely difficult to research due to ethics concerns, and probably aren’t seen a ton on the forums because, as you said, this forum often has more advanced keepers who have raised thousands of torts and keep good conditions where there is a gradient and are rises and dips in humidity; the less advanced keepers normally have more pressing issues, and the lack of gradient and dips is generally fixed in fixing the other issues. Again I’m just talking very specific cases that we likely won’t see much on the forums because of how closely linked they are with proper husbandry and providing a gradient etc.

 

[Tom]

Sorry I might not have relayed the info (in terms of how I got it) very clearly; it is definitely a bit speculative, and a lot of it comes from hypothesizing in case reports + info from some of the more specialized & experienced exotic vets in my state.

There is no current published research I know of partially due to the agonizingly long time it takes to publish (why’s it always reviewer 2 that wants more edits). & just to clarify w/ overly high, I’m talking months of consistent >90-95% RH throughout the entire enclosure with few to no dips, including on the cool side. These specific conditions where it is hypothesized that harm may be caused are likely difficult to research due to ethics concerns, and probably aren’t seen a ton on the forums because, as you said, this forum often has more advanced keepers who have raised thousands of torts and keep good conditions where there is a gradient and are rises and dips in humidity; the less advanced keepers normally have more pressing issues, and the lack of gradient and dips is generally fixed in fixing the other issues. Again I’m just talking very specific cases that we likely won’t see much on the forums because of how closely linked they are with proper husbandry and providing a gradient etc.

I'm glad you clarified. I am not a red foot guy, but your first post was giving me cause for concern. I was wondering if RFs were different than all other species in this regard, and I was going to have you start warning all the people with RFs in South FL, South TX, and New Orleans that their excessively high humidity was going to make their tortoises sick... Of course, we all know the species thrive outdoors there in that part of the country with all that humidity.

I'll throw in my first hand experience with babies in high humidity. I've started over 1000 hatchlings of several species in constant 80-100% humidity and no respiratory issues to report yet.

 

[Redfootguy123]

I'm glad you clarified. I am not a red foot guy, but your first post was giving me cause for concern. I was wondering if RFs were different than all other species in this regard, and I was going to have you start warning all the people with RFs in South FL, South TX, and New Orleans that their excessively high humidity was going to make their tortoises sick... Of course, we all know the species thrive outdoors there in that part of the country with all that humidity.

I'll throw in my first hand experience with babies in high humidity. I've started over 1000 hatchlings of several species in constant 80-100% humidity and no respiratory issues to report yet.

Yeah outside conditions are definitely a whole different story than in an enclosure. The differences are interesting though; outside, there is so much more room for error because the environment often makes up for it. There could be months of >90% humidity, but it is no problem for adult redfoots because of other environmental factors (e.g., wind etc).

Indoor enclosures just require so much more precision, with the lack of it leading to much more severe consequences (e.g., UVB all day in an enclosure resulting in damage vs. spending all day in the sun and being fine) than if a similar mistake is made in an outdoor enclosure. While the reasons for the extra precision in indoor enclosures seem obvious, I do still find the fact that there's such a difference interesting.

 

[Tom]

Yeah outside conditions are definitely a whole different story than in an enclosure. The differences are interesting though; outside, there is so much more room for error because the environment often makes up for it. There could be months of >90% humidity, but it is no problem for adult redfoots because of other environmental factors (e.g., wind etc).

Indoor enclosures just require so much more precision, with the lack of it leading to much more severe consequences (e.g., UVB all day in an enclosure resulting in damage vs. spending all day in the sun and being fine) than if a similar mistake is made in an outdoor enclosure. While the reasons for the extra precision in indoor enclosures seem obvious, I do still find the fact that there's such a difference interesting.

I don't find that there is a difference, and I don't see any need for the great precision indoors the you speak of.

How does wind do anything outside? If it's 90% humidity, it's 90% humidity wind or not. Adding a fan inside a closed chamber wouldn't change anything either. I've actually done that one. Nothing changed.

For many years all source recommended running UV bulbs for 12 hours a day, and most of them still do. I don't agree with that, and it doesn't make sense to do it that way, but as long as UV levels are correct and a strong HO tube isn't mounted too close, the UV bulb all day won't hurt anything. If the UV is too strong or mounted incorrectly, it can still do damage in a few hours a day.

Again, after starting literally over 1000 babies in closed chamber over more than a decade and a half now, I've never seen any problems from it. My conditions are far from precise, and humidity is typically over 90% all the time, rising higher at night when the enclosures cool.

Still not seeing why you brought this up or what the problem is. You read something somewhere, but have you personally seen or heard of a problem with a RF or any other species, having respiratory issues from being housed in a closed chamber with high humidity? I have not.

 

[Redfootguy123]

I don't find that there is a difference, and I don't see any need for the great precision indoors the you speak of.

How does wind do anything outside? If it's 90% humidity, it's 90% humidity wind or not. Adding a fan inside a closed chamber wouldn't change anything either. I've actually done that one. Nothing changed.

For many years all source recommended running UV bulbs for 12 hours a day, and most of them still do. I don't agree with that, and it doesn't make sense to do it that way, but as long as UV levels are correct and a strong HO tube isn't mounted too close, the UV bulb all day won't hurt anything. If the UV is too strong or mounted incorrectly, it can still do damage in a few hours a day.

Again, after starting literally over 1000 babies in closed chamber over more than a decade and a half now, I've never seen any problems from it. My conditions are far from precise, and humidity is typically over 90% all the time, rising higher at night when the enclosures cool.

Still not seeing why you brought this up or what the problem is. You read something somewhere, but have you personally seen or heard of a problem with a RF or any other species, having respiratory issues from being housed in a closed chamber with high humidity? I have not.

Talking adult not babies. There’s definitely still some precision w/ babies but they need a lot more humidity.

Poor airflow contributes to stagnant air and to mold and lung issues, other environmental factors outside vs inside (e.g., cleaners, substrate, etc), even in bioactive inside, lead to differences in mold growth, shell health, etc. heat inside typically stays around the same temp due to technical limitations while outside swings throughout the day and is different every day. Excrement is often eaten indoors if it isn’t caught in time. I could go on; there are a million little differences that create the need for more precision in indoor enclosures.

If adding a fan to an indoor enclosure isn’t changing environmental conditions such as humidity, the fan was likely malfunctioning or pointing the wrong way. In an indoor enclosure you might typically use something like a computer fan on a single air outlet that pulls the air out of the enclosure for example. This pulls humidity out while creating airflow that pulls clean/fresh air in through other vents.

 

[Tom]

Talking adult not babies. There’s definitely still some precision w/ babies but they need a lot more humidity.

Poor airflow contributes to stagnant air and to mold and lung issues, other environmental factors outside vs inside (e.g., cleaners, substrate, etc), even in bioactive inside, lead to differences in mold growth, shell health, etc. heat inside typically stays around the same temp due to technical limitations while outside swings throughout the day and is different every day. Excrement is often eaten indoors if it isn’t caught in time. I could go on; there are a million little differences that create the need for more precision in indoor enclosures.

If adding a fan to an indoor enclosure isn’t changing environmental conditions such as humidity, the fan was likely malfunctioning or pointing the wrong way. In an indoor enclosure you might typically use something like a computer fan on a single air outlet that pulls the air out of the enclosure for example. This pulls humidity out while creating airflow that pulls clean/fresh air in through other vents.

Is this all speculative, or have you actually encountered these problems? Because I've never seen any of what you are talking about after 15+ years of doing it this way.

My fan wasn't pointing the wrong way or malfunctioning, it was just circulating the air contained inside the enclosure. I didn't have it blowing in or out of a vent because that would defeat the purpose of a closed chamber. It just moved the air inside the enclosure.

 

[mojo_1]

Talking adult not babies. There’s definitely still some precision w/ babies but they need a lot more humidity.

Poor airflow contributes to stagnant air and to mold and lung issues, other environmental factors outside vs inside (e.g., cleaners, substrate, etc), even in bioactive inside, lead to differences in mold growth, shell health, etc. heat inside typically stays around the same temp due to technical limitations while outside swings throughout the day and is different every day. Excrement is often eaten indoors if it isn’t caught in time. I could go on; there are a million little differences that create the need for more precision in indoor enclosures.

If adding a fan to an indoor enclosure isn’t changing environmental conditions such as humidity, the fan was likely malfunctioning or pointing the wrong way. In an indoor enclosure you might typically use something like a computer fan on a single air outlet that pulls the air out of the enclosure for example. This pulls humidity out while creating airflow that pulls clean/fresh air in through other vents.

They definitely eat their own and others excrement in the wild.

 

[Redfootguy123]

Is this all speculative, or have you actually encountered these problems? Because I've never seen any of what you are talking about after 15+ years of doing it this way.

My fan wasn't pointing the wrong way or malfunctioning, it was just circulating the air contained inside the enclosure. I didn't have it blowing in or out of a vent because that would defeat the purpose of a closed chamber. It just moved the air inside the enclosure.

The purpose of using a fan on an indoor enclosure is to manage humidity and create airflow, as well as vent out stagnant air and vent in fresh air. Just putting one inside the enclosure does nothing besides move old air around. Venting the air does not defeat the purpose of an indoor enclosure unless the enclosure only has one ventilation port and ports are only on one side, in which case there is a husbandry issue; it both creates more of an environmental control and improves health and welfare, as well as provides environmental enrichment. None of this is speculative and is based off of recent research and findings

(see: https://doi.org/10.12968/coan.2023.0051, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cvex.2021.05.005, https://doi.org/10.1002/9781118977705.ch5, https://doi.org/10.1002/9781119333708.ch18, http://dx.doi.org/10.22233/9781905319794.3, http://dx.doi.org/10.22233/9781905319794.3, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cvex.2015.01.001, https://toddlab.ucdavis.edu/publications/daly et al. 2018 HCB.pdf, https://doi.org/10.3390/jzbg3040037,
https://doi.org/10.3390/ani11102964, https://www.proquest.com/indexingvo...B459AB142490EA1458066A9AF.i-0615f81f09d96078e, doi 10.1079/9781800623736.0000, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10135285/,
and many others).

for airflow and ventilation in general (as opposed to indoor vs outdoor enclosures and reptile specifics in ventilation) and other relevant information when thinking about some of the many differences in indoor enclosures: doi:10.1289/ehp.1510037, https://www.cdc.gov/mold-health/about/index.html, https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/wind_is_essential_to_natural_processes, doi:10.1186/s12879-019-3717-9, doi:10.1111/ina.12254, https://www.health.ny.gov/environmental/air_quality/vocs.htm

Although I respect that you have been doing this for a while and understand that you have not personally seen specific adverse outcomes, I think it is important to remain open to information like this. It is what makes the difference between simply surviving without adverse outcomes versus thriving in ideal conditions.

They definitely eat their own and others excrement in the wild.

Yeah definitely. I just mean that in an outdoor enclosure they are probably a little more likely not to immediately turn around and try to eat it due to distractions and other environmental enrichment that just cannot be provided in an indoor enclosure.

 

[Tom]

The purpose of using a fan on an indoor enclosure is to manage humidity and create airflow, as well as vent out stagnant air and vent in fresh air. Just putting one inside the enclosure does nothing besides move old air around. Venting the air does not defeat the purpose of an indoor enclosure unless the enclosure only has one ventilation port and ports are only on one side, in which case there is a husbandry issue; it both creates more of an environmental control and improves health and welfare, as well as provides environmental enrichment. None of this is speculative and is based off of recent research and findings.

There are many reasons for using a fan. The purpose you are stating is one I am familiar with. I'm using a fan just for that reason in my bearded dragon enclosure. This was NOT the reason for using it in a tortoise enclosure. If you blow cold dry room air into a tortoise enclosure, you may as well just use an open topped enclosure. The only reason to do that would be if the air inside is not how you want it to be. In my case, I wanted to see what effect the fan would have circulating the contained air inside the closed chamber enclosure. I found no benefit to it, so I stopped doing it. I was trying to see if I could reduce the condensation in a tropical set up that was in my cold garage. It didn't.

Further, blowing or sucking cold dry room air into a perfectly functional warm humid closed chamber enclosure is NOT going to improve health and welfare, it is going to detract from that goal because you are removing the warm humid healthy air that you were trying to create by using a closed chamber enclosure in the first place.

You did not answer my question and instead spent a whole lot of time linking a bunch of stuff that I have no time and no desire to read about other people's opinions. Having read many of these types of things in years past, I can tell you that its all usually re-cycleing the same old wrong info and lots of theories that sound great on paper but don't hold up in the real world. Your research has led you astray, as it often does.

My assertions are based on real world experience with hatching, raising and keeping 1000s of tortoises over several decades. You are raising these concerns based on some academic papers you've read? Have YOU ever encountered theses problems, or not?

 

[Redfootguy123]

There are many reasons for using a fan. The purpose you are stating is one I am familiar with. I'm using a fan just for that reason in my bearded dragon enclosure. This was NOT the reason for using it in a tortoise enclosure. If you blow cold dry room air into a tortoise enclosure, you may as well just use an open topped enclosure. The only reason to do that would be if the air inside is not how you want it to be. In my case, I wanted to see what effect the fan would have circulating the contained air inside the closed chamber enclosure. I found no benefit to it, so I stopped doing it. I was trying to see if I could reduce the condensation in a tropical set up that was in my cold garage. It didn't.

Further, blowing or sucking cold dry room air into a perfectly functional warm humid closed chamber enclosure is NOT going to improve health and welfare, it is going to detract from that goal because you are removing the warm humid healthy air that you were trying to create by using a closed chamber enclosure in the first place.

You did not answer my question and instead spent a whole lot of time linking a bunch of stuff that I have no time and no desire to read about other people's opinions. Having read many of these types of things in years past, I can tell you that its all usually re-cycleing the same old wrong info and lots of theories that sound great on paper but don't hold up in the real world. Your research has led you astray, as it often does.

My assertions are based on real world experience with hatching, raising and keeping 1000s of tortoises over several decades. You are raising these concerns based on some academic papers you've read? Have YOU ever encountered theses problems, or not?

Petsmart cares for and sells thousands of tortoises per year, and has done so for several decades, does that automatically make them the highest standard of care? I have never seen the northern lights, does that mean they don’t exist? Your assertions that experience automatically means you are correct and to be correct one has to have first hand experience are logical fallacies.

While experience does lend you credit, the way you are using your experience (i.e., to imply that it automatically means you are correct) is not an application of it.


“Based on opinions” thought like that surrounding proven scientific bodies of literature, are feelings that I’ve seen arise a lot recently. They are not correct; the scientific method is proven and tested, it is the gold standard. Following scientific literature versus personal opinions is the difference between surviving (personal opinion) and thriving (scientific literature). While healthy skepticism is definitely necessary, simply calling science opinion and discarding it is definitely beyond healthy skepticism.

You keep saying you’ve never seen adverse respiratory symptoms in tropical tortoises; so you’ve never encountered RI or had to adjust any perimeters in any of your enclosures?

All animals need proper airflow and fresh air. Some cooler air does not automatically negate the effects of a closed chamber enclosure; what will contribute negatively, is an enclosure that is not properly ventilated and does not have airflow that allows fresh air in and old air out. A fan can assist in this and create more control of humidity and moisture.

This discussion seems to be getting rather heated. I won’t be engaging any further so as to avoid rising tempers or the need for moderator action. I suggest you examine how open you are to scientific literature and science itself. The vets and researchers specializing in reptiles and tortoises have also been working with them for decades, and have specialized training and education that makes them qualified; although the experiences of breeders and non vets is definitely important, at the end of the day, the vet specialists are more often correct and have more experience with disease and dysfunction, as well as its causes.

 

[turtlesteve]

I don’t see any evidence that the discussion is heated. I think some good points were brought up.

You imply that private keepers aren’t using the scientific method and have less valid observations than these vets you cite. That is likely incorrect when you’re talking to some of the more experienced people on the forum. You will find degreed scientists among those whose experiences you are dismissing, and many of us without a “pedigree” nevertheless share the same manner of scientific thinking and have decades of hands on experience to draw from.

I looked at some of the references you posted and while many of them are quite interesting, the ones I have read so far don’t present any relevant evidence or findings related to airflow needs of tortoises. I would appreciate if you could point us directly to that evidence.

It should be obvious that nobody completely restricts air exchange in indoor enclosures, seeing as how tortoises aren’t suffocating. The need in indoor enclosures is to maintain tropical temperatures and humidity within a box that is inside an air conditioned space. Airflow is limited only to a point where reasonably sized heaters and water evaporation create the proper environment. If we increased air flow, we’d end up with temperature being too low. If we then add more basking lights to raise temperature, we wind up with very low humidity and tortoises that suffer from it.


Steve