Desperately need opinions about sex and behavior

[Tidgy's Dad]

If the tortoise ends up flashing, I will send you 5,000 of a currency of my choosing.

Even my Moroccan Dirham would be cool.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I'd want to separate out the behavior a bit more, as play acting sexual behavior and not call it aggression. Both males and females sort out their role by doing all the behaviors possible for both sexes, they have both urges at some level or another. Aggression in tortoises seems to me, more about motivating an animal to leave the area - which is fighting over limited resources, real or perceived. I'll go our on a limb here but figure Barbara does not allow resources to be limited (food and water, hides and shelter). So that also leads to sexual role playing as a interpretation.

It's not like they drive cool cars, smoke cigarettes in some provocative way etc. All they have are grunts, and contact. Nobody has told them they are males and females, they sort it our with trial and error. Even well into their adult lives when they have all been successful at reproduction, they are still sorting it out to some extent.

Just something to consider.

I am glad my guess fell on the side of @Neal 's. I guess, and it is female regardless of the behavior.

 

[Neal]

Good observation Will. Aggression or dominance do not seem to be the right words in this case.

I don't worry about this kind of behavior much, so my opinion is that your tortoises could cohabitate successfully all else considered. In my group with multiple males, I believe this behavior encourages breeding activity and it's never severe enough that I have concerns about the welfare of my tortoises. They also have 1/3 acre to romp around on, are given endless amounts of food, and have multiple females to play with.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Barb, is their outside L yard just grass? Like a typical backyard? With the bushes along the edge etc?
Or does their L yard look like a heavily planted tort enclosure?

I think I've seen a picture of a grass yard... ?

Anyway, I ask cuz if it is the typical patch of backyard maybe they need more of the crazy grass overgrown, thick bushes/obstacle heavy enclosure to help them co habitate during this "season" you're in.

 

[wellington]

Very interesting. The "aggression/behavior" is minimal. It's not hard butting and it's once or twice and then they are on their way. No one hides away. There are three hides, three water dishes and all the grass, weeds, and multiple flowering tree leaves and flowers then can reach up for. Plus, I feed them in the evening some greens incase they didn't eat much while outside. There is no lack of food, water or space. Each part of the L shaped outdoor pen is approximately 50 feet long by approx. 10 feet wide. It can be divided into three seperate enclosures, which it is now. There is a hide and water dish in each section.
All three used to live together. Like all or most of last winter and until about May or June of this year. Then though, I only took my male out so he couldn't bug the female all the time. I would put them back together here and there. The aggression/behavior really started just within the last few weeks.
I will keep them seperate in the shed at night and will try them together during the day when I will be able to watch them. Maybe they can get it sorted out. We'll have to see.

 

[wellington]

Barb, is their outside L yard just grass? Like a typical backyard? With the bushes along the edge etc?
Or does their L yard look like a heavily planted tort enclosure?

I think I've seen a picture of a grass yard... ?

Anyway, I ask cuz if it is the typical patch of backyard maybe they need more of the crazy grass overgrown, thick bushes/obstacle heavy enclosure to help them co habitate during this "season" you're in.

There is 11 bushes/trees spread out among the whole area. However, only one was here when we moved here last April. So all the others I have planted and they are still small. The grass/weeds along the fence line we leave much longer. The rest of the grass we keep cut about once every two weeks. We normally have to cut our yard every week. They don't graze as well if it's too long. They rarely walk outside of the fence line. The bushes/trees are close to the fence lines, but not in it. I am going to look for more sight barriers to place other then just trees and bushes, so they won't be able to look down the yard and see another tort.
Actually 13 bushes/trees I just went and counted.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

yaaayyy!!!!!!!
I win a bottle of @Grandpa Turtle 144 Budweiser.

Never a bottle always a can or 2 or 3

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Never a bottle always a can or 2 or 3

That's ok, i'm getting 5 grand from Neal now, anyway.

 

[Tom]

Fun discussion.

I can't tell the sex on this one yet. We'll just have to wait a bit longer.

Interesting behavior.

 

[wellington]

Anyone with females that has mounted another tortoise. Do the females make,the same noise as the male would?

 

[Tom]

I had a female sulcata, Daisy, that would charge and try to ram any other tortoise of any size. I never let it go long enough to see if she would try to mount, but I'll bet she would have. She did try to mount some of the bigger females. She was 8 pounds and they were 60-70 pounds each at the time. They just ignored her little shenanigans and went about their business. She tried to intimidate the big male and he shut her down quick-like. She started behaving herself after that point.

 

[mike taylor]

I say male . ha-ha

 

[wellington]

Well, today I let all three be together. Their enclosure is seperated in three sections. I can close a section of fencing to have them in their own area, or leave them open and let them be together. I left them opened. Lillie again mounted Lucy, acting like a male, with sound effects. After that, they all just did their own thing. When she came upon Tatum, she would follow him, but that's it. He of course ignored her and soon she went about her business again. I still do not let them be together inside the shed.
I'm think she might have the Napoleon syndrome

 

[domalle]

Anyone with females that has mounted another tortoise. Do the females make,the same noise as the male would?

With redfoots, females will mount other females and go through the same motions as males with the same clucking vocalizations.
The mounted female is not necessarily the subordinate animal. The dominant female may just go about her business and ignore the other
males and females even as she is being accosted by others challenging for status.
It may be that by moving your 1.2 group in and out of a stable environment, you are disrupting their natural behavior in attempting to establish a natural
pecking order. Unfortunately that process of working out a hierarchy and jockeying for position in a group can be painful for them to experience
and painful for us to watch. So each time you separate them and reintroduce them, they have to start all over again.
We have to decide how far we can let it go without intervention.

 

[wellington]

With redfoots, females will mount other females and go through the same motions as males with the same clucking vocalizations.
The mounted female is not necessarily the subordinate animal. The dominant female may just go about her business and ignore the other
males and females even as she is being accosted by others challenging for status.
It may be that by moving your 1.2 group in and out of a stable environment, you are disrupting their natural behavior in attempting to establish a natural
pecking order. Unfortunately that process of working out a hierarchy and jockeying for position in a group can be painful for them to experience
and painful for us to watch. So each time you separate them and reintroduce them, they have to start all over again.
We have to decide how far we can let it go without intervention.

Makes sense. I just can't keep my eye on them when they are inside, so I don't risk it. I guess though, seeing it's not bad dominance, bullying, or whatever it is, I could let them be together inside too, they usually do just find a place to go sleep for the night. Before she started this, when they all did live together, they would sometimes sleep together and then other times, they would find,their own space. Of course, this was also before either one knew Lucy was a female, before she came into her womanhood.
Then again, maybe wait one a few months or a year and see if Lillie stays looking female, or starts showing male signs.

 

[domalle]

Makes sense. I just can't keep my eye on them when they are inside, so I don't risk it. I guess though, seeing it's not bad dominance, bullying, or whatever it is, I could let them be together inside too, they usually do just find a place to go sleep for the night. Before she started this, when they all did live together, they would sometimes sleep together and then other times, they would find,their own space. Of course, this was also before either one knew Lucy was a female, before she came into her womanhood.
Then again, maybe wait one a few months or a year and see if Lillie stays looking female, or starts showing male signs.

By the way, I neglected to mention those are three very nice healthy leopards.

 

[wellington]

Thanks.

 

[dmmj]

a bossy female? Why I have never heard of such a thing

 

[Robber]

I bet those scutes start to grow and putsch outwards, giving him the curled mustache look like many males.

^^^^^^ This ^^^^^

 

[wellington]

^^^^^^ This ^^^^^

I hope not. She/he is a strange one. She does march around like she is IT. However today, they are all together and she hasn't bothered either of the other two. Go figure, she's an odd one.