Devastated!

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Just a quick question, after my little ones' trauma, I'm panicking about an upcoming holiday. I've never worried before but I know from advice on here I was probably the worse tortoise owner ever. I'm overthinking everything because they were so poorly, my brother always pops in twice a day when we are away but we would be nervous leaving lights etc on when he's not here incase they were hurt. I know they could stay at some vets but we know that they never ate or drank a thing until they came home to us. Any advice on the things people do for holidays would be greatly appreciated.

Hello!
If someone's checking them twice a day, they should be fine. Daily clean fresh water, spot cleaning and enough food is basically what should be provided.

As of lights and heating - thermostats and timers do the job for you on turning things on and off.
I also have "smart" sockets and thermometer/hygrometer to manage and check if everything's okay from a smartphone. And a web camera with motion detection (it was helpful when my tortoise flipped over).

Staying at vet is last option, I think. They may get bad care and will be stressed out by environment change.

 

[Stellios and Stavros]

Hello!
If someone's checking them twice a day, they should be fine. Daily clean fresh water, spot cleaning and enough food is basically what should be provided.

As of lights and heating - thermostats and timers do the job for you on turning things on and off.
I also have "smart" sockets and thermometer/hygrometer to manage and check if everything's okay from a smartphone. And a web camera with motion detection (it was helpful when my tortoise flipped over).

Staying at vet is last option, I think. They may get bad care and will be stressed out by environment change.

Thank you so much.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Agree with Alex it is best to keep them at home, that will cause the least amount of stress.

As for the sex thing, most male tortoises present female at birth and start looking more male as they mature. It is most likely that he has always been male but was misgendered.

 

[Tom]

The vet looking after tortoises said she has seen the end of a penis but all her paperwork says female. She said tortoises have been known to be both

Perfect travel advice from Alex.

I think Edward is right on the above quote. Until they reach maturity and the hormones start to flow, most tortoises are identified as female. About half the time, not coincidentally, this is wrong. The secondary sexual characteristics that easily separate adult males from females, like the concave plastron, extended gular scutes in some species, greatly enlarged tails, and anal scute shape, do not begin to take shape until they are older and more mature. We constantly warn here the most vets do not know much about tortoises, and this quote above from a vet serves as the second and third reminder/indicator of this fact in this one thread.

1. Everyone does, or should, know that ivermectin is toxic to tortoises. Its also toxic to prehensile tailed skinks, and several other species. Even some dog breeds are sensitive to it. As Mark 1 pointed out, the vet should have looked up the proper dosage for a tortoise in their handbook or a vet website, and immediately seen that there was a problem. And by the way on this subject, I am thrilled that your tortoises survived this ordeal. In a way, the vet's ineptitude in delivering the intended dosage may have saved their lives.
2. At least one vet is calling your male tortoise a female because they have no idea that secondary sexual characteristics do not show up until they are closer to maturity. They probably looked it up in a reference text, saw how to ID an adult male, didn't see those characteristics in your immature male, and came to the incorrect conclusion that your male tortoise is female. Anyone that has raised a few tortoises would know this. I started keeping chelonians in 1979. Tommy Turtle, my first box turtle, had to be re-named Thomasina because vet number two said vet number one was wrong, and that we did indeed have a female. Then one day Thomasina Turlte pooped out her guts and we ran to the vet. (No camera phones back then, so no photographic evidence...) Vet number three examined Thomasina carefully and re-proclained Thomasina as Tommy. The was the day I learned the medical definition of an "erection" from my poor mother who was a career professional nurse. I don't think she intended to teach her 7 year old son about such things just yet... Looking back, it is VERY easy to sex adult box turtles, and most mature adult tortoises too, if you've simply laid hands on a few of them and looked.
3. This proclamation that tortoises have been known to be both sexes is preposterous. Absurd. You are now speaking to a community of tortoises keepers, some of whom have raised 1000s of tortoises over several decades, and not a single one of us has ever even heard of one single case of this. Neither have any of my reptile vet friends. Tortoises are NOT known to be both sexes, which is why I made my initial statement in the earlier post about the vet being incorrect in their ID.

In any case, many people get upset, argue, and are not happy when I try to explain to them that vets know veterinary medicine, but most of them do not know tortoises or tortoise husbandry. My wife was a veterinary consultant for 15 years and she was thrown out of a clinic after the vet there initiated a conversation with her upon hearing that her husband (me) kept and bred many tortoises of several species. My wife is about as pleasant and unconfrontational as a person could get, especially when on the clock for work and with a distributor rep. This vet was housing baby tortoises on rabbit pellets with no water bowl in a tiny aquarium with a spot lamp over them. Upon being pressured to engage, my wife diplomatically explained what I have been learning and doing over the years and what the results were. This vet's answer to this wonderful new life changing information was a snotty, "Where did your husband get his veterinary degree?" My wife answered, "He's not practicing veterinary medicine, he's researching and developing tortoise husbandry practices based on information on how they live in the wild and what works best in captivity..." This vet looked at the distributor rep and said, "Get her out of here and don't bring her back again." I am not as diplomatic as my wife, and my response to a question like that from a vet is, "How many semesters were there on tortoise care in your vet school?" I know several vets who are great with tortoises and actually raise and keep their own. These are few and far between. Most of them are like the ones you've been dealing with, and are too proud to admit their ignorance in the face of obvious evidence. Knowing how to dispense medicines and do surgery is NOT the same as knowing the subtleties of keeping and raising a variety of species that are all different with different needs.

 

[Chefdenoel10]

Perfect travel advice from Alex.

I think Edward is right on the above quote. Until they reach maturity and the hormones start to flow, most tortoises are identified as female. About half the time, not coincidentally, this is wrong. The secondary sexual characteristics that easily separate adult males from females, like the concave plastron, extended gular scutes in some species, greatly enlarged tails, and anal scute shape, do not begin to take shape until they are older and more mature. We constantly warn here the most vets do not know much about tortoises, and this quote above from a vet serves as the second and third reminder/indicator of this fact in this one thread.

1. Everyone does, or should, know that ivermectin is toxic to tortoises. Its also toxic to prehensile tailed skinks, and several other species. Even some dog breeds are sensitive to it. As Mark 1 pointed out, the vet should have looked up the proper dosage for a tortoise in their handbook or a vet website, and immediately seen that there was a problem. And by the way on this subject, I am thrilled that your tortoises survived this ordeal. In a way, the vet's ineptitude in delivering the intended dosage may have saved their lives.
2. At least one vet is calling your male tortoise a female because they have no idea that secondary sexual characteristics do not show up until they are closer to maturity. They probably looked it up in a reference text, saw how to ID an adult male, didn't see those characteristics in your immature male, and came to the incorrect conclusion that your male tortoise is female. Anyone that has raised a few tortoises would know this. I started keeping chelonians in 1979. Tommy Turtle, my first box turtle, had to be re-named Thomasina because vet number two said vet number one was wrong, and that we did indeed have a female. Then one day Thomasina Turlte pooped out her guts and we ran to the vet. (No camera phones back then, so no photographic evidence...) Vet number three examined Thomasina carefully and re-proclained Thomasina as Tommy. The was the day I learned the medical definition of an "erection" from my poor mother who was a career professional nurse. I don't think she intended to teach her 7 year old son about such things just yet... Looking back, it is VERY easy to sex adult box turtles, and most mature adult tortoises too, if you've simply laid hands on a few of them and looked.
3. This proclamation that tortoises have been known to be both sexes is preposterous. Absurd. You are now speaking to a community of tortoises keepers, some of whom have raised 1000s of tortoises over several decades, and not a single one of us has ever even heard of one single case of this. Neither have any of my reptile vet friends. Tortoises are NOT known to be both sexes, which is why I made my initial statement in the earlier post about the vet being incorrect in their ID.

In any case, many people get upset, argue, and are not happy when I try to explain to them that vets know veterinary medicine, but most of them do not know tortoises or tortoise husbandry. My wife was a veterinary consultant for 15 years and she was thrown out of a clinic after the vet there initiated a conversation with her upon hearing that her husband (me) kept and bred many tortoises of several species. My wife is about as pleasant and unconfrontational as a person could get, especially when on the clock for work and with a distributor rep. This vet was housing baby tortoises on rabbit pellets with no water bowl in a tiny aquarium with a spot lamp over them. Upon being pressured to engage, my wife diplomatically explained what I have been learning and doing over the years and what the results were. This vet's answer to this wonderful new life changing information was a snotty, "Where did your husband get his veterinary degree?" My wife answered, "He's not practicing veterinary medicine, he's researching and developing tortoise husbandry practices based on information on how they live in the wild and what works best in captivity..." This vet looked at the distributor rep and said, "Get her out of here and don't bring her back again." I am not as diplomatic as my wife, and my response to a question like that from a vet is, "How many semesters were there on tortoise care in your vet school?" I know several vets who are great with tortoises and actually raise and keep their own. These are few and far between. Most of them are like the ones you've been dealing with, and are too proud to admit their ignorance in the face of obvious evidence. Knowing how to dispense medicines and do surgery is NOT the same as knowing the subtleties of keeping and raising a variety of species that are all different with different needs.

Wow! Your wife took a punch.
I would like to see that vets turtles
NOW to see all of the shell damage and other problems that have happened over the years because of his arrogance!!!
What a 🤬!!!
I am soooo mad for your wife!!!
I want to go there and kick him in the pants 👖!!!
The sad part is…
We can all get over being called stupid and that we don’t know what we are talking about ..yet the poor animals suffer a great long life span of ABUSE and irrational stupidity by their owners…😭😢
Sooooo sad…

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again….

“I hate people!”
Especially selfish, arrogant ones…

God bless you AND YOUR WIFE and AALL the caretakers on this site for the love and support they provide us with on a daily basis. No appointments needed or waiting times to see someone who lives 3 states away to tell us..
“there is nothing wrong with your turtle.”
“ Head tilts are common amongst that breed.” “He doesn’t look uncomfortable anyway.” “Just keep him warm and he will do just fiiiinnneee.”

Sorry guys for the long message but I got…
P🤬ssed …🫢