Dinner time!

[chadk]

Dinner for the 3 indoor torts. A mix of grasses, weeds, blackberry leaves, salmonberry leaves, etc from my backyard.

You can see in detail how bad off poor little Thunder is\was:

THE END

(gotta love little tortie butts!)

---

Oh, and the water dragons didn't want to be left out...

Often I open the glass door to the water dragon area and lay accross the room a piece of wood for them to climb out on. They are so curious as to what the torts are up to, usually pressed against the glass trying to look down, so I do this to give them a better view!

 

[Weloveourtortoise]

LOVE the last shot of the torts and you water dragon in beautiful!

 

[Tom]

Water dragons are cool. Way better than green iguanas, IMHO.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

It's nice to see your pictures Chad...but I sure wish you weren't mixing species like that. You have a Sulcata who is in obvious desperation for lots of humidity, and a Russian not so much. 2 different species with different needs...I certainly don't mean any disrespect but I had to say something because it's exactly the same situation as Gertie and the one eyed stranger...you are just looking for trouble. If you kick up the ambient humidity needed for the Sulcata you run the risk of a URTI with the Russian. Am I wrong?

 

[chadk]

Yeah, I moved them together after that cold snap we had earlier in the winter. Was getting down to freezing in the garage the heat lamps were barely enough. Humdity was tough to keep up and with cold temps other than the basking area, it was a bad situation. So for now, they are sharing that nice big space and all torts are doing much better and are way more active than being in the garage where they were all seperated.

The area has an ambient humidity of 35 to 45% depending on the day (higher just after watering and lower the longer I wait to water again). Temps are very stable and easy to control in that little reptile room. Abmient temps are around 75, with 2 basking areas around 100. Good temp gradients and micro-climates. Humidity in the hides is concentrated and much higher than the ambient humidity in the room.

Russian torts do well with humid hides. (as do young sulllies)

From RussianTortoise.org:
" In the wild they live in very arid conditions. But their burrows have up to 70% humidity!"

and
"Humidity is an important consideration with Russian tortoises. It is also very misunderstood. There are those that claim that high humidity will cause shell rot and respiratory infection. This is only partially true. High humidity, damp substrate AND cool temperatures cause problems.

In the wild they live in fairly arid conditions although I have read some reports that they are often found near streams and small lakes. They cope with low humidity by digging long burrows where the humidity is as high as 70%. "

They also have the same diet.

Soon the outdoor enclosure will be done. I'm probably going to build one that all 3 will share since they are doing so well together now. It is going to be 10ft x 5ft with lots of hides, lots of grass and weeds, and natural burrows. I may hibernate the russians there next winter and then just have the sullie in the house during the cold months.

 

[ChiKat]

Their enclosure is so cool! I LOVE it!
What other types of leaves/weeds do you feed your Russians? I have blackberry bushes in my yard and I never would have thought to give the leaves to Nelson!

I can't wait to see pictures of the outdoor enclosure! Hurry up and finish it so I can see pictures!!

 

[chadk]

I put in maple and alder leaves along with the salmon berry and black berry - just a little for variety. Usually just the new growth that is fresh and green - espcially the black berry as it can get nasty thorns in mature leaves. But most of what I get from my yard is: various grasses, dandilions, plantian, and clover. And then I feed from my garden depending on what is in season. And some mazuri, spring mix, and other extra or left over greens from our own dinners.

---

The full enclosure is roughly 5x4.5 ft. You don't see a lot of the space that is off to the left (the cool zone - get's down to lower 70s) below the snake bins. The water dragons are right above in a space just slightly bigger than 4x4 and 4ft tall but sloping down to just over a foot in the back - under stairs closet..).

---

Maggie, no need to appologize. You have valid concerns. I don't recommend keeping different torts together either. This is temporary and lots of thought has gone into the decision. Their needs are practically identical.

Here is what sulcata station says about humidity for hatchlings (and Thunder is about 3yrs old now):
"• Monitor the humidity on your tortoise table. You'll need to purchase a hygrometer and find a way to place it in the enclosure near where your
tortoise sleeps. Try to maintain a humidity level of 60 to 75 percent in
whatever area your tortoise sleeps in."

And this:
"Many people have been told by misinformed pet stores or vets that because sulcata are
desert animals, they cannot tolerate any humidity. This is wrong.
In fact, hatchling sulcata tortoises in the wild make extensive use of underground burrows in which the ambient humidity is significantly higher than above-ground humidity. They do this for at least two reasons:
• Higher humidity levels found inside burrows help smaller tortoises to stayproperly hydrated;"

and

" but I would also try to create a gradient so the tortoise has a choice between areas of higher humidity and lower, just as we supply areas of
higher temperature and lower. As you said, high humidity is also not something that
we want - particularly stagnant highly humid air."

So the basic care is as close to the same as you can get. Moderate to low ambient humidity, temp gradients, high humidity burrow\hide, diet, etc. All have been seperated for over 6months and health closely monitored.

Thunder has shown great improvements under my care. Shell is now nice and hard and he has really gained weight. When I brought him home, he shell was thin and soft feeling, he felt light in the hand, skin pale and thin, and pyamiding very badly. Probably MDB as well. Growth clearly stunted. Cracks in the shell that are now healed. He is doing great and I continue to monitor his progress closely and ensure his needs are met.

---

Maggie, no need to appologize.

(your post is now gone where you apologized and mentioned that you think the tort needs 80% ambient humidity)

I don't recommend keeping different torts together either. This is temporary and lots of thought has gone into the decision. Their needs are practically identical.

Here is what sulcata station says about humidity for hatchlings (and Thunder is about 3yrs old now):
"• Monitor the humidity on your tortoise table. You'll need to purchase a
hygrometer and find a way to place it in the enclosure near where your
tortoise sleeps. Try to maintain a humidity level of 60 to 75 percent in
whatever area your tortoise sleeps in."

---

Ooops - the editing got messed up. And now time is expired to fix it...

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I deleted my post because I didn't want to start an argument. I don't care what Sulcata station says. Most of their information is old and out of date. Your Thunder is badly pyramided and I would keep him in a situation with 80% or more humidity. That's ME and MY rescue experience. If he came into my care looking like that he'd get 80% humidity or more.
But more then their care...Russians eat broadleaf weeds and Sulcata eat grass, (a small example)...but my fear is that some newbie will come on and see your tortoises together and think that it's alright. We have experienced keepers here on the forum who keep different species together. They monitor the situation in case of bullying or one species getting sick and they know what signs to look for, what changes to spot. But that newbie who doesn't know what to look for is going to see your tortoises together and think that it's alright. And in many situations it is alright. In most it is not. This is exactly why I deleted my first post, I don't want to do this back and forth arguing. I have my opinion you have yours... right or wrong. Mixing species to me is wrong, it is not to you. The chelonia community is in a constant state of flux. Information today is constantly changing. The way we keep tortoises today is not the way we kept them even 5 years ago. New information is coming out all the time now. We are on the fore front of a new way to keep tortoises and turtles.
I don't like the information put out by Sulcata Station, in my humble opinion here is the best information on the care and feeding of Sulcata. Joe keeps on top of the latest information and I know him and like the information he puts out on Sulcata and Russians. He keeps other tortoises as well but I don't care about the others.
So here's his link, you might even like that better then Sulcata Station...
http://africantortoise.com/

 

[chadk]

Again, Maggie, I respect your thoughts on this and think you have valid concerns. I have no problem openly discussing them. I may even change my mind if given good reasons. Though I do think you are too tough on Sulcata Station. What specifically is wrong with anything I posted?

And yes, the situation is temporary. The next steps are not 100% clear, but I will have either one or 2 pens this spring outside. Leaning toward just one as they have the same needs and the get along just fine. Then the sullie will move back indoors for cold months and the russians will hibernate. So yes, the situation is temporary, and yes, they do get along and may at times continue to share space until the sullie grows too big...

Joe has good stuff on this site, but when comparing Sulcata and Russian care, you'll find him re-using the same material often since they are so similar.

Here is what Joe says about diet for sullies - you'll see it is pretty much the same for russians. In fact, he links directly to the Russian tort diet section that he has 'for more info on diet'. So clearly Joe feels Sullies and Russians should be eating the same stuff in captivity.

•Nutritious chemical free healthy foods are often freely available in your yard or vacant lots.
Grasses, Clovers, Grape, Mulberry & Fig leaves, Dandelion, Plantain (the weed) , Hibiscus (leaves and flowers), Opuntia, Thistles, Chickweed .This link will help you to be able to identify edible plants:
http://www.africantortoise.com/edible_plants.htm

•Better of the easily obtainable grocery greens:
Aim for a high Calcium to Phosphorus ratio and low protein diet. When fed in excess, foods high in Oxalates have been implicated in binding minerals including calcium.
Moderation and variety is the key.
Regularly:
Dark Leafy Greens such as: Endive, Watercress,Collard Greens, Kale, Dandelion, Chicory, Escarole, Radicchio, Turnip Greens, Opuntia (smooth or despined)
Occasionally:
Cabbage, Carrots, Carrot Tops, Red Leaf Lettuce, Romaine, Mustard Greens, Alfalfa Hay, Parsley
**** Rarely****:
Swiss Chard, Spinach, Broccoli, Bok choy, Iceberg lettuce, Sweet Potatoes, Sprouts of any kind, Corn, Cucumbers, Beet Greens, Fruit in general.


Joe also have very little info on keeping hatchlings. Or did I just miss that part? He does not offer specifics about temps and proper humidity levels for them.

In his pyramiding section, humidity is barely mentioned and nothing specific is given (like what is the right level of humidity).

That is why I like what sulcat station offers (and they have lots of updates less than a year old). They really get into hatchling care and the specific needs around humidity.

So the only disagreements I have with yor are that 1) their humidity needs are much different 2) their diet is much different and 3) sulcata station site is somehow less helpful and accurate than Joe's stuff

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Chad, this is exactly why I deleted my post, I didn't want to be sucked into this back and forth thing but I feel the need to protect my opinion somehow. I am using my own experience at rescue. I don't have to read a care sheet. Why all the reference to hatchlings? You said Thunder was 3 years old? That's not a hatchling.
I was just trying to tell you how I would care for Thunder if he came under my care and that would be 80% or more humidity.

My main objection to your pictures is how they will be seen by a new keeper. How many times do I have to say that? I am trying to tell you how I feel your pictures will look to a new keeper, the message that those pictures would send out is that it's alright to mix species. I don't believe it is alright, but that's my experience and opinion.

 

[chadk]

Nothing wrong with discussing ideas is there? I thought that was the point of having a tortoise forum... No need to feel defensive. If a newbie looked at your pics, he'd think fruit is a staple diet and plywood is a great substrate. Be we know there is more to the story, don't we?

So are you suggesting an ambient humidity of 80% or more is needed for any sulcata that has had issues with pyramiding?

You don't learn for other people's experiences? Isn't that the point of reading a caresheet? Isn't that what Joe offers on his site? I mentioned hatchlings as that is the stage where they are most vulnerable and in need of higher humidity - sulcata station has that part right - joe does not. That is why I mentioned it.

I respect your opinion, or I wouldn't bother asking questions. But if you can't or don't want to answer the questions, that is your right.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Nothing wrong with discussing ideas is there? I thought that was the point of having a tortoise forum... No need to feel defensive. If a newbie looked at your pics, he'd think fruit is a staple diet and plywood is a great substrate. Be we know there is more to the story, don't we?

So are you suggesting an ambient humidity of 80% or more is needed for any sulcata that has had issues with pyramiding?

You don't learn for other people's experiences? Isn't that the point of reading a caresheet? Isn't that what Joe offers on his site? I mentioned hatchlings as that is the stage where they are most vulnerable and in need of higher humidity - sulcata station has that part right - joe does not. That is why I mentioned it.

I respect your opinion, or I wouldn't bother asking questions. But if you can't or don't want to answer the questions, that is your right.

Do you not feel your comment on fruit and plywood is a passive/aggressive insult? Well I do. Bob getting a few strawberries is not anything close to a diet staple and even a newbie wouldn't think that it was.

I suggested an ambient humidity of 80% for Thunder, there was no talk of any other tortoise

I am not going to waste my time defending Joe Heinen. If he has printed something that is not true I will apologize for sending that link to you. I guess I need to read up on that particular care sheet and let him know what you think is wrong. I don't read care sheets anymore and haven't for several years I think...I mostly rely on my own experience and that has worked just fine.
Yes, Bob's shed has a plywood floor, but at least it would never and hasn't ever gotten below 75 degrees. I don't understand why you think that flooring is a bad thing? I paid a contractor $800 to insulate and finish off his shed to make it a great place for him to live in the winter. It's not fancy but it's warm and safe and comfortable. I frankly don't understand you having 3 tortoises who are not set up in the safest, warmest and best way possible for them to live.
As for you respecting my opinion? I'm blonde but I'm not dumb...

 

[chadk]

Take it easy Maggie - that was not an insult. Just pointing out that your worry about my pics leading a newbie astray applies equally to some of your pics. Is that not a fair comparison? How do you know what a newbie would think? If all we are to assume is that they look at pics and not read the content, then both your pics and mine can lead a newbie down a bad path.

I never said plywood flooring is a bad thing. For an adult sullie who has access to a large secure yard to roam and graze on grasses and weeds - it makes good sense. But playing your 'what if' game, what if a newbie saw pics of Bob on a wood floor and thought that raising a baby sullie indoors using only plywood as a 'substrate' would be OK?

And I have 5 tortoises, who are all perfectly safe, secure, warm, well fed, and well loved

So why 80% or higher just for thunder? I thought you said for any tort that was had pyramiding issues? What makes Thunder need 80, but another need something different? If we are to understand your advice, we need to know the context. Why 80 and not 60? For how long? Should there be a concept of micro-climates that applies to humidity levels as well as temps and lighting? What about outdoors?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Take it easy Maggie - that was not an insult. Just pointing out that your worry about my pics leading a newbie astray applies equally to some of your pics. Is that not a fair comparison? How do you know what a newbie would think? If all we are to assume is that they look at pics and not read the content, then both your pics and mine can lead a newbie down a bad path.

I never said plywood flooring is a bad thing. For an adult sullie who has access to a large secure yard to roam and graze on grasses and weeds - it makes good sense. But playing your 'what if' game, what if a newbie saw pics of Bob on a wood floor and thought that raising a baby sullie indoors using only plywood as a 'substrate' would be OK?

And I have 5 tortoises, who are all perfectly safe, secure, warm, well fed, and well loved
I'm sorry Chad, I didn't mean to infer that your tortoises aren't loved, it's just that when you said they were living in the garage with temps near freezing, I thought that meant that they were living in the garage with temps near freezing.

So why 80% or higher just for thunder? I thought you said for any tort that was had pyramiding issues? What makes Thunder need 80, but another need something different? If we are to understand your advice, we need to know the context. Why 80 and not 60? For how long? Should there be a concept of micro-climates that applies to humidity levels as well as temps and lighting? What about outdoors?

I don't know who the "we" is that needs to understand my advice. The only advice I offered was to you and all it was is that I felt Thunder needed a higher humidity that might not be good for the Russian. Here again you want answers I can't give. I should have just said "higher humidity" instead of 80%. How do I know? It's experience. When you have more years of experience and do a few rescues you will know what I am talking about. I'm sorry I said anything in the first place, it's just that I saw a tortoise I felt needed a different husbandry so I spoke up. I have already apologized to you for offering you advice on how to care for your tortoises. I certainly won't do it again. Here it is evening and this has been going on all day, I tried to delete my initial post for just this reason. I am done I won't respond here again.

 

[chadk]

Maggie, all I'm trying to do is understand your advice. The 'we' are the newbies you mentioned who may be reading this looking to learn something. "Because I said so" isn't going to get folks very far in understanding your position.
If you don't know what the humidity is in the torts humid hide\sleeping area (I never gave that info), how do you know it needs more humidity? If it is showing signs of improvement, isn't that the goal?

Bottom line is I have been giving them identical care, in seperate enclosures since I got them. They were all healthy and quarantined for over 6months. The setup I had for them was not working and I could tell they were not thriving in the garage - so I made some changes.

They have the same diet in captivity. They have the same basic heat and humidity needs. The same substrate needs. Same UVB needs. Same water needs.

All are thriving. Thunder has continued to grow, put on weight, and none of them are stressed by being together. They all eat well, get exercise, and have multiple basking spots, hides, and room to explore.

I'm sorry my questions frustrate you. That is one way I learn is by asking and trying to understand others opinions.

So now that Maggie and I are done - who else has good reasons why or why not this is a good idea? Does anyone else feel their basic care is too different? Diet?

 

[Yvonne G]

My only problem with it is that the Russians (wild caught) come into this country with a terrific parasite load...VERY dirty. They have been gathered together in humongous numbers, all piled up on each other, some dead, most sick. Then sent to the pet stores. If you don't know the origin of your Russian tortoise, its best to never put it with another type of tortoise unless you have been to the vet and had testing done on the animal.

Of course, CB is a whole 'nother story.

Its just hard to teach an old dog new tricks. I have three different types of tortoise that basically get the same type habitat and care, yet I'd NEVER even consider putting any of them in the same pen. It makes my skin crawl!!!

 

[chadk]

My only problem with it is that the Russians (wild caught) come into this country with a terrific parasite load...VERY dirty. They have been gathered together in humongous numbers, all piled up on each other, some dead, most sick. Then sent to the pet stores. If you don't know the origin of your Russian tortoise, its best to never put it with another type of tortoise unless you have been to the vet and had testing done on the animal.

Of course, CB is a whole 'nother story.

Its just hard to teach an old dog new tricks. I have three different types of tortoise that basically get the same type habitat and care, yet I'd NEVER even consider putting any of them in the same pen. It makes my skin crawl!!!

thanks Yvonne. What specifically would they be tested for?

 

[Yvonne G]

Nematodes, tape worm, flukes, flagellate organisms...

You know...a regular fecal examination.

Here's a nice article that I found on peteducation.com about parasites:

"Turtles and tortoises are fortunate that they are not as susceptible to as many varieties of parasites that most mammals, birds, and other reptiles are plagued with. However, there are several internal and external parasites that can cause severe problems and even death, if they are not properly treated. Most parasitic problems in turtles and tortoises occur when the animals are either kept in close captivity with other turtles or tortoises or when kept in unsanitary housing conditions.
Turtles and tortoises should NEVER be treated with ivermectin.

One important note when it comes to treating turtles and tortoises concerns the use of the antiparasitic drug ivermectin. While ivermectin is one of the most effective antiparasitic drugs in the world, it should never be used on turtles or tortoises. It can be extremely toxic and cause death, if administered to turtles or tortoises. If there is any question as to the safety of an antiparasitic drug in turtles and tortoises, a qualified veterinarian should be consulted.

Nematodes

Nematodes are one of the most common parasites found in turtles and tortoises. These internal parasites are similar to the common roundworms that infect most mammalian species. The infection occurs when a healthy turtle ingests the tiny roundworm eggs that have been deposited in the environment through infected turtles feces. The eggs hatch, the larvae mature, and the worms set up residence in the digestive tract and will continue to reproduce and grow. Turtles and tortoises with a heavy worm load will often have symptoms of weight loss, diarrhea, and possibly vomiting of worms.

Diagnosis is either made by seeing the worms in the feces or vomitus, or more commonly, through a fecal sample examined under a microscope. Treatment is best achieved with the oral administration of the antiparasitic drug fenbendazole. The suggested dose is 23 mg per pound given once and then repeated in 14 days. Another effective drug is oxfendazole, however, this drug is sometimes more difficult to find in the United States.

Tapeworms and flukes

Tapeworms and flukes can infect aquatic turtles, but are rare in tortoises. These parasites need to go through an intermediate host and are not much of a problem in most well-cared-for captive turtles. If the small worms are seen in the feces or diagnosed through a fecal exam, they can be successfully treated with praziquantel (Droncit) or oxfendazole.

Flagellate organisms

Flagellate organisms are present in many healthy tortoises and turtles, however, if they are present in high numbers, they can cause severe intestinal problems. Flagellates are protozoans with the most common genus being Trichomonas. These small, highly motile, whip-like organisms live in the intestinal tract and can be easily identified through a microscopic fecal exam. Severe infestations of Trichomonas can lead to diarrhea, dehydration, weight loss, and the passage of undigested food. The presence of these organisms in the feces does not always indicate an infection, and the veterinarian needs to determine if they are actually causing a problem before initiating treatment. The common drug used for treatment is metronidazole. While metronidazole is an effective drug, caution must be used to avoid killing off all of the good organisms in the intestinal tract resulting in a sterile intestine. Feeding yogurt, or in more severe cases, the feces from a healthy tortoise, may be necessary to re-seed the intestine after metronidazole treatment.

Dietary deficiencies or excesses, such as an excessive intake of high sugar-fruit, are often a common cause of increased levels of flagellate organisms. Diets that are too low in dietary fiber can also be a cause. Keeping tortoises of different species together in the same enclosure or overcrowding is another factor, which significantly increases their likelihood of developing problems with flagellate organisms. Another cause of outbreaks in tortoises is associated with excessively high overnight temperatures or unrestricted access to heat lamps. Tortoises that are fed a natural diet and those that are allowed to graze under more natural conditions rarely develop flagellate problems. Allowing tortoises an appropriate cooling period at night will often greatly diminish their risk of developing a problem with trichomonas.

Conclusion

This is just a small listing of some of the common parasites that can infect turtles and tortoises. Good housing, proper nutrition, and regular physical exams including fecal checks can go a long way in preventing parasitic problems. If you suspect that your turtle or tortoise is harboring a parasite, contact your veterinarian immediately.


References and Further Reading

Highfield, A.C. Practical Encyclopedia of Keeping and Breeding Tortoises and Freshwater Turtles. Carapace Press, London; 1996.

Jenkins, J. The Veterinary Clinics of North America Exotic Animal Practice. W.B. Saunders Co. Philadelphia, PA; 1999. "

 

[chadk]

OK, just wondering if you are talking about a routine fecal.
So if the tort has a normal parasite load, would that alleviate your concerns?

 

[Yvonne G]

No, like I said...it makes my skin crawl to see different species together! old dog...new tricks...can't do it!