So all tortoises in captivity have a "Marty the zebra" complex?
Do you think it's ethical to keep reptiles as pets?
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Well, I did not expect to be understood by everyone- but i am pretty sure there are some here. For me, it's just common sense, for you, an opportunity to make an irony. No big deal, I am quite accustomed.
And we have a word here: "exactly because of that it will not rain anymore in Bucharest"... I use to give mainly US location when expressing such wisdom, but sometimes mentioning Namibia or Atacama, to give some weight to such replies. It is really dry out there, you know...
So, what can be better than irony?? I am curious, even if already knowing the answer...
And we have a word here: "exactly because of that it will not rain anymore in Bucharest"... I use to give mainly US location when expressing such wisdom, but sometimes mentioning Namibia or Atacama, to give some weight to such replies. It is really dry out there, you know...
So, what can be better than irony?? I am curious, even if already knowing the answer...
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Yearn, wants, desire, missing freedom. Really.
These are called projections, we do it to each other, we do it to rocks and trees. Why I like animals, they don't project. I know they are not automatons, but many of the descriptions here say more about the author than the animal they keep.
One zoo I worked at had sleepovers in the reptile house for scouts, Y groups, churches whatever. Inevitably someone would ask, adult or child about this concept. I think one member from France (sorry lost the name already) said it best, we he said we are ourselves captives in cages of our own design. Freedom of captivity is something most nearly everyone on earth is no longer capable of or willing/interested in re-acquiring.
In one extended episode of field work I was able to shake off the required group to work in the country I was in, and the one man that stuck with me was a 'wild' native man from way way way up in the mountains (for real). We spoke no words to each other, not one in common. He did not have any supplies or gear, he did everything based on at the moment need, and what he found in the forest. That was a very interesting moment or even an epiphany for me. We all, are captives of out own design.
So that we include some wildlife alongside ourselves is in part how we maintain our humanity at all. Cats, are no more domesticated than ones we have from birth, dogs pretty much too. They are socialized from day one and selected for a personality trait that keeps them lifelong kittens and puppies. Without that human accompaniment from very early on, they are feral and wild within that life time. One generation.
A feral cat or dog is as able to become a pet about as well as the average squirrel, raccoon, or possum that inhabits some backyards. Even coyotes can become pretty tolerant of close association with people. The genetics of captive and wild animals are much more behavioral than physiological.
Now the concept of what care is provided versus what is needed is why we all share what we share here yes/no?
If you have let someone emot you into guilt for that bit of humanity you have, to share your life with an animal, then you have become that person's pet yourself. You are that much more domesticated, and in a cage.
IMO
Will
These are called projections, we do it to each other, we do it to rocks and trees. Why I like animals, they don't project. I know they are not automatons, but many of the descriptions here say more about the author than the animal they keep.
One zoo I worked at had sleepovers in the reptile house for scouts, Y groups, churches whatever. Inevitably someone would ask, adult or child about this concept. I think one member from France (sorry lost the name already) said it best, we he said we are ourselves captives in cages of our own design. Freedom of captivity is something most nearly everyone on earth is no longer capable of or willing/interested in re-acquiring.
In one extended episode of field work I was able to shake off the required group to work in the country I was in, and the one man that stuck with me was a 'wild' native man from way way way up in the mountains (for real). We spoke no words to each other, not one in common. He did not have any supplies or gear, he did everything based on at the moment need, and what he found in the forest. That was a very interesting moment or even an epiphany for me. We all, are captives of out own design.
So that we include some wildlife alongside ourselves is in part how we maintain our humanity at all. Cats, are no more domesticated than ones we have from birth, dogs pretty much too. They are socialized from day one and selected for a personality trait that keeps them lifelong kittens and puppies. Without that human accompaniment from very early on, they are feral and wild within that life time. One generation.
A feral cat or dog is as able to become a pet about as well as the average squirrel, raccoon, or possum that inhabits some backyards. Even coyotes can become pretty tolerant of close association with people. The genetics of captive and wild animals are much more behavioral than physiological.
Now the concept of what care is provided versus what is needed is why we all share what we share here yes/no?
If you have let someone emot you into guilt for that bit of humanity you have, to share your life with an animal, then you have become that person's pet yourself. You are that much more domesticated, and in a cage.
IMO
Will
A lot of people are more guilty of anthropormorphizing than they care to admit.
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Well, I know why I keep tortoises and I see nothing unethical about it. Better in my backyard, no predators, no competition from territorial conspecifics, 1-2 square meals a day...than risk getting buried alive by bulldozers smoothing over the landscape for timber or the next strip mall.
Sooner or later, we're not going to be able to get WC tortoises, and when that happens, I wonder if anyone on this thread will change their tune.
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Well, I know why I keep tortoises and I see nothing unethical about it. Better in my backyard, no predators, no competition from territorial conspecifics, 1-2 square meals a day...than risk getting buried alive by bulldozers smoothing over the landscape for timber or the next strip mall.
Sooner or later, we're not going to be able to get WC tortoises, and when that happens, I wonder if anyone on this thread will change their tune.
I have a question for Fabian. How do you know what the tortoises know? How do you know what any animal knows? I can look at an animal, baby or tortoise and know what they know. I can project what I want to onto them but I don't really know what they think or what they know.
I mean I can't know what they know, I can only project or imagine what they are thinking and what they know. If you looked at me, would you know what I know? Would you know what I think? How do you know what a tortoise knows? I really would like to know.
I mean I can't know what they know, I can only project or imagine what they are thinking and what they know. If you looked at me, would you know what I know? Would you know what I think? How do you know what a tortoise knows? I really would like to know.
I agree. If one can truly read the minds of animals, that is truly a marketable talent indeed!
I do not antropomorphyse... look for other kind of kepers, like the ones fearing their tortoise will not like to be alone, claustrate in cold and dark, for months, if you just like to use that word so much... but first, learn to identify it.
I am not projecting nothing, it's just realising the fact that it's not captivity making them as they are, but millions of years of wild and it's challenges.
Their brain is too primitive to change something so deep chiseled in it, so it's my turn to ask you all, how are you sure they are perfectly fine in captivity and not missing "something"? I mean, even if none of us can "read" animals mind, you are the ones implying they will be just fine, and not sensing the need to escape? So, now you just became animal minds readers too, isn't it?
I am a little more humble than that, since I accept that just offering food and shelter, my tortoises will not try to escape if finding the opportunity. My pittyful conditions that I offer them may be OK, but cannot be the same and complete as the wild... again, it's you that antropomorphise- how do you know they just like it, and not missing something?
Call it what you want- feeling, sensing, wanting, wishing, desiring, "call of the wild" etc.- but don't be that narrow to think they cannot feel it's something more out there. I just do not feel, it is obvious- even if they are quite territorial and attached to their immediate environment, even laying their eggs here... God forbid to let them an escape way... because they will use it.
All these arguments came from a man keeping, breeding, observing them, in captivity and wild, and speaking to passionate field experts. They do became attached to their enclosure, they learn all its features and react when something is changed- seems like they "feel at home", isn't it? It's natural, but I would be curious how can you explain why most animals, except some mammals and birds, will invariable try to escape if opportunity came? I think that if I would not have good, isolated and escape-proofed enclosures, I would not have not even a single one left here, in 2 years. Why? Are they that dumb to escape from safety, or they just feel/need to escape no matter what, since it's instinct, not reasoning that makes them act like that?
See, you are the antropomorphising ones here- you attribute them the human capacity of weighing options, and concluding that better captive in your yard, than free but far from habitat! Now, you find yourselves at the other end of the irony, it seems...
The fact they did not escaped from you- or getting crazy trying to- it's not because they did not feel to, but maybe your security is perfect and really no escape way there. Firm walls and no cracks to see through are fine in preventing fugitive ideas to arise in their mind. But I saw them when finding a few holes in one old wooden board, wich was a little rotten- they spent A LOT of time trying to reach the other side, just because they saw it. Scratching the wood, trying to digg, even ramming it!! Once repaired, a little more patrolling there, then abandoned and return to the "happy" life in enclosure.
They do get attached and accustomed to their area, but not that attached to not using an escape opportunity when offered, while captive. But some wild ones were seen in largely the same areas, in different years- they seem not "wanting" to escape that area; can you tell me why? Because I never heared about a fugitive returning "home", only just found even miles further, with lots of luck.
I repeat: just by affirming they don't feel nothing like "call of the wild" (you can mock here any similar terms, like wish, want, like, ask, love to, need, sense etc...) makes you too Masters of the Beasts. That equals our ecuation, and only one thing left: they will escape, if finding a way. Instinct is more powerful, and their attachament to their enclosure, even a very good one, will vanish when facing the challenge of "freedom", with all the unknown and dangers it brings with it. They will leave safety and familiar territory for that. Call it how you want to, but it's ridiculous not admitting it.
BTW: mocking and cheap irony is not debating, and you disqualify yourself as a discussion partner. I am a true master in that field but using my art very rarely, since it's lethal and it never pays even the smallest of benefits.
I am not projecting nothing, it's just realising the fact that it's not captivity making them as they are, but millions of years of wild and it's challenges.
Their brain is too primitive to change something so deep chiseled in it, so it's my turn to ask you all, how are you sure they are perfectly fine in captivity and not missing "something"? I mean, even if none of us can "read" animals mind, you are the ones implying they will be just fine, and not sensing the need to escape? So, now you just became animal minds readers too, isn't it?
I am a little more humble than that, since I accept that just offering food and shelter, my tortoises will not try to escape if finding the opportunity. My pittyful conditions that I offer them may be OK, but cannot be the same and complete as the wild... again, it's you that antropomorphise- how do you know they just like it, and not missing something?
Call it what you want- feeling, sensing, wanting, wishing, desiring, "call of the wild" etc.- but don't be that narrow to think they cannot feel it's something more out there. I just do not feel, it is obvious- even if they are quite territorial and attached to their immediate environment, even laying their eggs here... God forbid to let them an escape way... because they will use it.
All these arguments came from a man keeping, breeding, observing them, in captivity and wild, and speaking to passionate field experts. They do became attached to their enclosure, they learn all its features and react when something is changed- seems like they "feel at home", isn't it? It's natural, but I would be curious how can you explain why most animals, except some mammals and birds, will invariable try to escape if opportunity came? I think that if I would not have good, isolated and escape-proofed enclosures, I would not have not even a single one left here, in 2 years. Why? Are they that dumb to escape from safety, or they just feel/need to escape no matter what, since it's instinct, not reasoning that makes them act like that?
See, you are the antropomorphising ones here- you attribute them the human capacity of weighing options, and concluding that better captive in your yard, than free but far from habitat! Now, you find yourselves at the other end of the irony, it seems...
The fact they did not escaped from you- or getting crazy trying to- it's not because they did not feel to, but maybe your security is perfect and really no escape way there. Firm walls and no cracks to see through are fine in preventing fugitive ideas to arise in their mind. But I saw them when finding a few holes in one old wooden board, wich was a little rotten- they spent A LOT of time trying to reach the other side, just because they saw it. Scratching the wood, trying to digg, even ramming it!! Once repaired, a little more patrolling there, then abandoned and return to the "happy" life in enclosure.
They do get attached and accustomed to their area, but not that attached to not using an escape opportunity when offered, while captive. But some wild ones were seen in largely the same areas, in different years- they seem not "wanting" to escape that area; can you tell me why? Because I never heared about a fugitive returning "home", only just found even miles further, with lots of luck.
I repeat: just by affirming they don't feel nothing like "call of the wild" (you can mock here any similar terms, like wish, want, like, ask, love to, need, sense etc...) makes you too Masters of the Beasts. That equals our ecuation, and only one thing left: they will escape, if finding a way. Instinct is more powerful, and their attachament to their enclosure, even a very good one, will vanish when facing the challenge of "freedom", with all the unknown and dangers it brings with it. They will leave safety and familiar territory for that. Call it how you want to, but it's ridiculous not admitting it.
That is incontestable, I agree 101%...
BTW: mocking and cheap irony is not debating, and you disqualify yourself as a discussion partner. I am a true master in that field but using my art very rarely, since it's lethal and it never pays even the smallest of benefits.
That is incontestable, I agree 101%...
A very human trait, mathematically unreal.
Incorrect.
A very human trait, mathematically unreal.
Incorrect.
Wow...I can edit only for half an hour after posting, so now unable to correct it. Sorry, it will stay 101%...
... it's a metaphore, man... forget it.
QED.
... it's a metaphore, man... forget it.
QED.
The whole concept of a reptile trying to "escape" is anthropomorphizing in itself. They aren't trying to "escape". It is in their nature to roam. They walk around within their territory searching for food, water, mates (in the case of males), shelter, etc... Our enclosures are simply barriers to their ability to roam. They are simply trying to overcome the barriers or "obstacles" that we have placed in their desired path.
To suggest that a captive born animal has some sort of instinctive memory of what it was like in the wild is ridiculous. Completely absurd. To suggest that they "yearn" for freedom the way a human does is non-sense.
To answer the original question again: YES. It is completely "ethical" to keep reptiles as pets. I say this with a renewed sense of purpose after returning from the TTPG conference and being reminded of the plight of so many species in the wild. Keeping my reptiles, to the standard I keep them, is COMPLETELY within my code of ethics.
To suggest that a captive born animal has some sort of instinctive memory of what it was like in the wild is ridiculous. Completely absurd. To suggest that they "yearn" for freedom the way a human does is non-sense.
To answer the original question again: YES. It is completely "ethical" to keep reptiles as pets. I say this with a renewed sense of purpose after returning from the TTPG conference and being reminded of the plight of so many species in the wild. Keeping my reptiles, to the standard I keep them, is COMPLETELY within my code of ethics.
Fabian, so you do not know what they know and what they think. You are merely assuming that the tortoise knows its wild home. So, in essence you are projecting your own thoughts onto the tortoise. I don't know one way or another, it just makes me happy to watch and enjoy these tortoise friends. I am projecting friendship onto the tortoise because I like it and it makes me happy to like it.
dmmj said:You know if the "aliens" provided 2 or more females for each male, that might not be a bad thing.
Thanks for the post, Im back interested again. I wonder if I could get my wife to dress up like an alien for a night. She said she is ok with it. Pics coming soon for dmmj
Friend, I understand where you're coming from, that everything is born wanting to be free, even captive born animals, but....it just seems to me like...well, how could they miss something that they've never had? I'm far from an expert, but my tortoise Ayden (my female tort, Azura, is still getting used to me I'd imagine as I've had her for less than a year) seems very happy to see me everytime I go near him....when I take him to his outside enclosure and come outside he will follow me around, when I sit down he will either sit under my chair or beside me, I get comments all the time from other people saying how Ayden acts almost like a clingy child with the way that he behaves (which is fine by me, mind you). It could be that I'm missing something I suppose, but to me it doesn't seem like Ayden really wants to be anywhere else.....(take into account that he could also be the exception rather than the rule - Ayden doesn't act like most tortoises, or so I've been told by other tort-owners)
Fabian,
Tom said it well. Rationalize it however you like to help you sleep at night, but you are guilty of nearly everything you accuse others of. You cannot read tortoise' minds. You have no concrete proof of their "instinctual/ancestral yearning for freedom." Every CBB sulcata tortoise is not thinking to itself "This isn't right. I should be in Africa!"
Tom said it well. Rationalize it however you like to help you sleep at night, but you are guilty of nearly everything you accuse others of. You cannot read tortoise' minds. You have no concrete proof of their "instinctual/ancestral yearning for freedom." Every CBB sulcata tortoise is not thinking to itself "This isn't right. I should be in Africa!"
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You all know what a thought experiment is? No grants or publishing required, you don't even have to share with us the result.
Here's the set up, some species of insect have evolved flight several times in their grand lineage, then lost it then re-acquired it. Don't like insects, then lets pretend penguins can fly again.
These animals did not have a "want" to fly again. Really, just had to have or need it, yes, those who did not have it are all dead.
So, let me hear your argument that tortoises are 'not evolving to be captives as a strategy to get around the other humans who would kill all the wild ones". That's right, it is an overt proactive desire that tortoises have to become captives in good keepers homes and yards, so that the mall builders and charcoal gatherers don't kill them all. They get a better health plan than Obama insists we will get, they get purer foods, they get heating on demand with our clever thermostats. And we are the chumps obliging their plan to persists after we kill all ourselves off. Yeah that's it. And I bet some of us who are animal trainers are teaching them to use tools so the ones in the backyards can release the ones in indoor enclosures, Yeah that's right.
To me the arguments that having a pet tortoise is unethical is even more prescribed silly, than this thought experiment I am asking you to consider.
Will
Here's the set up, some species of insect have evolved flight several times in their grand lineage, then lost it then re-acquired it. Don't like insects, then lets pretend penguins can fly again.
These animals did not have a "want" to fly again. Really, just had to have or need it, yes, those who did not have it are all dead.
So, let me hear your argument that tortoises are 'not evolving to be captives as a strategy to get around the other humans who would kill all the wild ones". That's right, it is an overt proactive desire that tortoises have to become captives in good keepers homes and yards, so that the mall builders and charcoal gatherers don't kill them all. They get a better health plan than Obama insists we will get, they get purer foods, they get heating on demand with our clever thermostats. And we are the chumps obliging their plan to persists after we kill all ourselves off. Yeah that's it. And I bet some of us who are animal trainers are teaching them to use tools so the ones in the backyards can release the ones in indoor enclosures, Yeah that's right.
To me the arguments that having a pet tortoise is unethical is even more prescribed silly, than this thought experiment I am asking you to consider.
Will
mira_kaylee said:
Yep sometimes you get a tort like that
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Tom said:
Very well said Tom!!! I agree and could not have said it better!! For me, it is absolutely ethical! Look what has happened to most of the "wild" populations in Madagascar. And I know all about poaching for the reptile trade. That is NOT the culprit to their impending demise.
bigred said:
Ayden is the perfect tort for me ^-^ I'm glad that he's like that lol.
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