Does diet contribute to pyramiding.

Tom

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@Tom @Markw84 I need to read your posts and think about them before I answer. It's my daughters 16th tonight so I'm a bit preoccupied.
I just wanted to show you this redfoot. It's now 6 months old(just over) and was fed protein from 3 months old.
This tortoise has had UVB from wk 1. I soak every day(missed the odd day but never missed 2 days on the bounce) humidity in my tort house never drops below 90%. I spray them twice a day, I have good drainage in there table so I can give the enclosure a very good spray without worrying about anything getting stagnant. I actually make sure I spray each and every individual baby every time. There are no hides other than masses of moss that they sleep in under palm plants. The idea was to force them into feeling insecure and want to dig in under the moss. Some dig in and some just lay on the moss.
If it's assumed that as long as I keep my torts from drying out that they won't pyramid then why is this little guy not smooth. I can only think of 2 things. Excessive growth or they have become that tame that they don't hide away with moist moss on top of the carapace any more.
There is no heat source anywhere near these babies, so artificial drying of the carapace is just not an option.
Btw. I have no preference to grow my torts slow or fast, I just want to find out if it is possible to give them too a rich diet that it can cause pyramiding.

What you are seeing there is normal. For the past 10 years or so, I've been raising tortoises in groups. I've been watching other people's groups too. Seems to be a ratio of one or two to ten, so 10-20%, show some mild pyramiding like that even in "ideal" conditions with the right foods. I'm speaking about the species that most commonly pyramid here. Sulctas, leopards, stars and RFs.

This is a phenomenon I cannot explain. In my cases, it is usually a slower growing tortoise that does this, but my largest star female also did it too. So in my star group, one of the smaller males has some of that mild pyramiding and my largest female too. None of them are perfect because I like them to be outside a lot in large enclosures as they grow, and my climate is just so dry here, but those two show the most pyramiding. It makes no sense. They were grown in the same enclosures with the same food and same routine.
 

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If a tort in the wild grows for 6 months of the yr but at the same growth rate as a captive tort does for 12 months a year then both torts would have the same width of growth rings, just the captive tort grows twice the size within the 12 month period than the wild tort would in a 6 month period. To me and you they would look the same, but they don't.
I've just spent a while looking at some wild torts and comparing them to one of my 3 1/2 yr olds.
How does that bowling ball smooth look happen. I can only think of three options.

1. They grow that slow that the growth rings are very tight giving a smooth bowling ball look.
2. There is excessive abrasion on the carapace that rubs the growth rings so all peaks and Valleys become the same height.
3. The surface of the carapace degrades over time, the actual hardened keratin becomes powdery on the surface and smooths off the carapace.

Some photos below to compare wild redfoots to my smooth redfoot. I'm actually thinking you are right Mark. If you look at some of these less worn carapaces the growth rings are just as wide as my torts. So that would rule out number 1 above.

Tom, we know there are plenty of smooth tortoises around nowadays. For those many 50lb 2 yr old smooth sullies out there, there are also torts that are not as smooth. What I'm trying to say is if you raised a clutch of 20 babies, 15 may be smooth at 2 yr old and at 50lb, but the other 5 may show signs of pyramiding. It's irrelevant in the ratios within a clutch of how many are smooth and are not. The recipe is not right if we do not get 100% of out torts to grow smooth IMO.
Also these 50lb 2 yr old sullies weren't fed protein. Could it be the overfeeding of protein that can tip the growth out of balance beyond a tort that is kept in perfect hydrated conditions.

For now I'm going to feed protein once a month instead of 3 times, just to be safe. However I've gone full circle with my thoughts again after talking to you two. I don't think any amount of soaking,spaying or high humidity can compensate for a tort being dug in under moist substrate, I also don't think a baby should be exposed to anything that can dry the carapace out. Only problem with this is it suggests all tort species eat bugs as babies to compensate for no D3 from the sun. That said if a baby tort is burried in moist substrate for long periods and has a 1hrs stint in the sun it may not dry the carapace off for long enough to do any damage. Maybe we need to look at how they rest and only offer access to bask for 1hr per day. (This is also why I wanted to know if torts grow when at rest and not when active).
I need to look at ways to get my tame baby redfoots to want to dig in when at rest.
Anyway. Here are some photos of wild redfoots to compare to.
IMG_0840.JPGIMG_0842.JPGIMG_0843.JPGIMG_0844.JPGIMG_0845.JPG
IMG_0856.JPG
IMG_0848.JPG IMG_0849.JPGIMG_0854.JPG
 

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If a tort in the wild grows for 6 months of the yr but at the same growth rate as a captive tort does for 12 months a year then both torts would have the same width of growth rings, just the captive tort grows twice the size within the 12 month period than the wild tort would in a 6 month period.

One of the main complications in this discussion and in figuring out this whole thing is that the details, like what you've mentioned above, will vary greatly by species and region. Some tortoises might only be active and growing for 6 months a year, but others, like russians in some areas, are only active for 12 weeks, while some tropical species near the equator have favorable conditions year round.

How does that bowling ball smooth look happen. I can only think of three options.

1. They grow that slow that the growth rings are very tight giving a smooth bowling ball look.
2. There is excessive abrasion on the carapace that rubs the growth rings so all peaks and Valleys become the same height.
3. The surface of the carapace degrades over time, the actual hardened keratin becomes powdery on the surface and smooths off the carapace.

Time, weather, sun, and abrasion all serve to smooth out the carapace. I would speculate that this usually happens faster in the wild than it will in captivity, due to our efforts to protect our charges. You can see this with many sulcatas raised in the Phoenix, AZ area. Testudo species there too. Tortoises in that area spend a lot of time underground to escape the intense heat.

Tom, we know there are plenty of smooth tortoises around nowadays. For those many 50lb 2 yr old smooth sullies out there, there are also torts that are not as smooth. What I'm trying to say is if you raised a clutch of 20 babies, 15 may be smooth at 2 yr old and at 50lb, but the other 5 may show signs of pyramiding. It's irrelevant in the ratios within a clutch of how many are smooth and are not. The recipe is not right if we do not get 100% of out torts to grow smooth IMO.

100% is a lofty goal that I share with you. Discussions like this, and arguments too, will hopefully reveal clues as to how to achieve this. I believe there are many factors at play in why some pyramid and some don't when kept in the same conditions. My top two guesses are stress, and individual habits. Some tortoises spend more time in drier conditions, while others are more content to hide out in the humid hide.

Hard to test the stress thing. I'd have to raise 10 all by themselves in individual enclosures and several groups of 10 to get a good picture of this. I don't have the time or space for that at this point in my life.

Individual habits though can be observed by each of us. Anecdotally, that is exactly what I've done. The ones that hang out under the heat lamps pyramid more, and the ones that hang out in the humid hide pyramid less, as a general rule.

Given all the variables, I don't know that 100% is achievable in a practical sense.

Also these 50lb 2 yr old sullies weren't fed protein. Could it be the overfeeding of protein that can tip the growth out of balance beyond a tort that is kept in perfect hydrated conditions.

Yes, actually, in some cases they were. I know of one guy in FL that allowed his tortoises to eat cat kibble every day. They also ate weeds and grass. Bert Langerwerf fed his sulcatas bits of turkey leftover from the band saw. Bones and all. I have one friend who lets his sulcatas eat dog poo. He figures they eat it in the wild and his dogs aren't medicated, so why not? Others are fed a fair amount of Mazuri which has a good amount of protein in it. I know of one sulcata breeder with a massive herd that feeds bails of alfalfa almost exclusively. In the wild, it has been reported that dying animals go underground to escape the intense African heat, and wild sulcatas opportunistically eat their carcasses.

So yes, many of them are eating protein. Whether or not they should eat it in captivity is another question.

For now I'm going to feed protein once a month instead of 3 times, just to be safe. However I've gone full circle with my thoughts again after talking to you two. I don't think any amount of soaking,spaying or high humidity can compensate for a tort being dug in under moist substrate, I also don't think a baby should be exposed to anything that can dry the carapace out. Only problem with this is it suggests all tort species eat bugs as babies to compensate for no D3 from the sun. That said if a baby tort is burried in moist substrate for long periods and has a 1hrs stint in the sun it may not dry the carapace off for long enough to do any damage. Maybe we need to look at how they rest and only offer access to bask for 1hr per day. (This is also why I wanted to know if torts grow when at rest and not when active).

Your ideas in this paragraph may work for a RF. I don't have enough experience with the species to offer a guess. But I can tell you that an hour of basking warmth per day will not be enough for most species. You are making a lot of guesses about how much sun they need. In ideal circumstances, they can probably get enough D3 from 15 minutes of sun per week. But limiting them to this amount, or one hour per day, ignores the other benefits offered by the sun. They also get warmth, and the light spectrum from the sun usually encourages appetite too. I'll grant that sunshine might be less important for "forest" species, but to limit most other species to one hour of "sun" per day, would be detrimental in my experience.
 

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So when this yrs wild Mediterranean species hibernate, will the fontanels carry on closing during hibernation or is there a complete shutdown of all development.
 

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So when this yrs wild Mediterranean species hibernate, will the fontanels carry on closing during hibernation or is there a complete shutdown of all development.

I cannot cite any studies, but I'll fathom a guess from what I know of biology.

During brumation or hibernation everything shuts down. Sort of a dormancy. The heart still beats and lungs still exchange gasses, but at a much slower rate than normal. Without food to convert into energy and "building blocks", I don't see how growth of any kind could be taking place during this time.
 

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I cannot cite any studies, but I'll fathom a guess from what I know of biology.

During brumation or hibernation everything shuts down. Sort of a dormancy. The heart still beats and lungs still exchange gasses, but at a much slower rate than normal. Without food to convert into energy and "building blocks", I don't see how growth of any kind could be taking place during this time.
Makes sense.
 

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Your ideas in this paragraph may work for a RF. I don't have enough experience with the species to offer a guess. But I can tell you that an hour of basking warmth per day will not be enough for most species. You are making a lot of guesses about how much sun they need. In ideal circumstances, they can probably get enough D3 from 15 minutes of sun per week. But limiting them to this amount, or one hour per day, ignores the other benefits offered by the sun. They also get warmth, and the light spectrum from the sun usually encourages appetite too. I'll grant that sunshine might be less important for "forest" species, but to limit most other species to one hour of "sun" per day, would be detrimental in my experience.

Good morning @Tom, with my comment on limiting the amount of basking time for let's say one of the med species.
I wasnt suggesting we take away the heat or light with the limiting basking times, For example in a set up you would have an ambient temp with a fluorescent uvb tube aswell as a uvb basking light. So you can imitate a basking spot for a period of time without risking all the other needs from lighting.

When we go on our family holidays, most times it's either Spain or Greece. The last few years during our family holidays Ive gone off in search of a wild tort. I've never seen one yet. Every time I speak to the locals they say early in morning or late in the evening. The last holiday in Zakynthos I went looking and failed again, it was around dinner time. One of the turtle experts on the island told me that I would struggle to see one after 8am until dusk, its around 30/35deg c most mid days.
So from that I assumed that the med species come out early in the morning to bask and warm up, then as the daily ambient temp rises they seek shelter in bushes(olive and pine forests) where it's shaded and a bit more humid in the leaf litter, then come out again later when the sun is cooling off, probably to feed again or find a mate or nest, maybe even to bask again before sundown.

There was one guy who told me the only way your going to see one in the day(this was in Majorca) is to listen for them rustling in the undergrowth, this again was in an olive and pine forest.

I'm guessing the heat of the day makes some species retreat to moist microclimates, and with other species like redfoots it's a higher predatory threat that makes them retreat. It's just a guess, but this would coincide with clutch sizes too.
My point is do they bask as much as we think they do as babies? Is nature one way or the other making all species of babies spend most of their time in the undergrowth. If so, how we imitate that is going to pose a problem because they get tame and spend more time out in the open drying off. I've noticed with my redfoot babies I can soak them(I always wet their carapace too when soaking) put them back in the enclosure and within 30 to 60 minutes the carapace is dry again. This is with 90% minimum humidity and no heat source close enough to dry them off. Then I think, how do the baby med species manage in the wild with such low humidity, the 30/35deg c heat on Spanish and Greek islands is a very very dry heat. They must hide away in the undergrowth for vast amounts of time is what I'm thinking. This overcomes the low humidity and dry arid days.
 

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Good morning @Tom, with my comment on limiting the amount of basking time for let's say one of the med species.
I wasnt suggesting we take away the heat or light with the limiting basking times, For example in a set up you would have an ambient temp with a fluorescent uvb tube aswell as a uvb basking light. So you can imitate a basking spot for a period of time without risking all the other needs from lighting.

When we go on our family holidays, most times it's either Spain or Greece. The last few years during our family holidays Ive gone off in search of a wild tort. I've never seen one yet. Every time I speak to the locals they say early in morning or late in the evening. The last holiday in Zakynthos I went looking and failed again, it was around dinner time. One of the turtle experts on the island told me that I would struggle to see one after 8am until dusk, its around 30/35deg c most mid days.
So from that I assumed that the med species come out early in the morning to bask and warm up, then as the daily ambient temp rises they seek shelter in bushes(olive and pine forests) where it's shaded and a bit more humid in the leaf litter, then come out again later when the sun is cooling off, probably to feed again or find a mate or nest, maybe even to bask again before sundown.

There was one guy who told me the only way your going to see one in the day(this was in Majorca) is to listen for them rustling in the undergrowth, this again was in an olive and pine forest.

I'm guessing the heat of the day makes some species retreat to moist microclimates, and with other species like redfoots it's a higher predatory threat that makes them retreat. It's just a guess, but this would coincide with clutch sizes too.
My point is do they bask as much as we think they do as babies? Is nature one way or the other making all species of babies spend most of their time in the undergrowth. If so, how we imitate that is going to pose a problem because they get tame and spend more time out in the open drying off. I've noticed with my redfoot babies I can soak them(I always wet their carapace too when soaking) put them back in the enclosure and within 30 to 60 minutes the carapace is dry again. This is with 90% minimum humidity and no heat source close enough to dry them off. Then I think, how do the baby med species manage in the wild with such low humidity, the 30/35deg c heat on Spanish and Greek islands is a very very dry heat. They must hide away in the undergrowth for vast amounts of time is what I'm thinking. This overcomes the low humidity and dry arid days.

And Good morning to you!

Good observations. We know they hide a lot, and survive by doing so. In observing my own baby leopards in an over grown weedy pen: They would completely disappear to the casual observer, but if I took the time to find them, they frequently had a little patch of sunshine in all the undergrowth. You literally couldn't see them from 1 meter away, but yet they were still in there basking. Of course this is temperature dependent. Once they are warmed up and ambient is up, then they would avoid the mid day sun like most any other species.

The key element there is that at any time, they could find sun and warm up throughout the day. In summer, they don't need to bask. In winter, with our cooler over night lows and rain, I see tortoises coming out of the cold shade patches and basing more often. Our tortoises, most species anyway, need the ability to thermoregulate. My tropical species will still bask even when ambient is above 32C. Keeping them at 26-27 and only offering a basking spot for an hour a day would be a problem.

I tried offering warm ambient temps in lieu of a basking area, and it didn't work well for sulcatas. It slowed their growth tremendously and didn't affect pyramiding one way or the other. Their clutch mates were raised more conventionally and grew much better.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/
 

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I know you were talking about the thermoregulating side of the sun then, but do you think the UV rays have any benefits on the carapace or not. I was told they can only absorb D3 through the skin and not the carapace, is that correct?
 

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I know you were talking about the thermoregulating side of the sun then, but do you think the UV rays have any benefits on the carapace or not. I was told they can only absorb D3 through the skin and not the carapace, is that correct?

I don't think anyone knows the answer to this. The prevailing idea is that D3 synthesis happens in the skin, but I cannot say definitively that it doesn't happen in the carapace too. Remember those squiggly lines we talk about from time to time? Those may or may not be related to D3 synthesis. I don't think anyone really knows.

In any case, how does this relate to our discussion? Whether they make UV in the skin or carapace, or both, they still need heat, right? An hour a day of UV should be plenty for any species, but they still need the carapace desiccating heat in order to warm up their core and function.
 

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I don't think anyone knows the answer to this. The prevailing idea is that D3 synthesis happens in the skin, but I cannot say definitively that it doesn't happen in the carapace too. Remember those squiggly lines we talk about from time to time? Those may or may not be related to D3 synthesis. I don't think anyone really knows.

In any case, how does this relate to our discussion? Whether they make UV in the skin or carapace, or both, they still need heat, right? An hour a day of UV should be plenty for any species, but they still need the carapace desiccating heat in order to warm up their core and function.
My next question was going to be, can they thermoregulate in the shade? For example shade at 30deg c and deep shade at 25deg c.
I think you already answered that above.
 

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some thoughts...

I do currently believe that the majority of the time, especially for young tortoises, is spent dug into moist substrate, or deep in plant cover, or leaf litter. I believe this is a primary way the shell hydration is maintained in the wild. The amount of time needed for basking as far as D3 production is quite small. Pre-vitamin D3 is created in the skin (not in shell keratin) in a matter of minutes with UVB exposure. However, the conversion of Pre-d to D3 takes considerable time that is sped up considerable with heated skin. At temps around 98°f, full conversion in the skin will take around 8 hours. At lower temperatures, much longer. However, once the levels of D3 in the blood are adequate, the life of D3 is quite long and they can go several weeks without need for more D3 production.

This does not address thermoregulation for overall metabolism. They do need to maintain a core body temp of what seems to be in the mid 80°'s and above for proper metabolism. In active growing periods, this would be desirable for at least 10 hours a day in my opinion. In the wild, I would not see any reason why a tortoise would not be able to maintain this body temp in the active growing times of the year. Most of that time would be in cover where they are protecting themselves from overheating.

When we are talking about basking, it is not just heat. The other consideration is "light". I believe light, and light color are key triggers for activity and well being for tortoises. They do not have 4 cones in their eyes for no reason. Not only do they use the wider wavelength of light (including UVA) to see and discriminate foods and probably suitable resting spots, but it also triggers activity like breeding, egg laying, and in some species, hibernation/brumation. How many people often wonder why their tortoise seems to "know" when its time to hibernate, even though temperatures are consistent? I believe it is the color temperature and UV content of the light that is shifting with the season. Sunlight has a much different color and UV content with the seasons. The decrease in UV intensity and the shift to a more "red" color may indeed be a key trigger that it is time to lay eggs for star tortoises, or hibernate for a Russian tortoise. I believe most keepers have lighting in their tortoise enclosures that are way too red and not enough blue and UVA to provide a proper environment. I am of the mindset to provide good 5500 - 6000K lighting with plenty of UVA and then offer plenty of shaded plant hides. Without this, our tortoises are forced to stay out in the open more than they would normally prefer, seeking out the light intensity that would seem more "normal". In the wild, the bright sunlight creates a much different spectrum allowing for a different look to the shaded hides they would normally prefer and seek out. I am becoming more interested in providing the proper light and heat to create the proper shaded hide more so than the basking spot.
 

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Along this line of thought, if I were keeping redfoot tortoises, I would not go for a lower lighting as many seem to propose using a 5.0 instead of a 12.0 UVB bulb. I would go for as I describe above - trying to create sunlight, but instead give A LOT of shaded cover. Perhaps it is the lower light levels it is assumed the redfoot prefers that forces them to bask more than "normal". Seeking out the level of blues and UVA they are programmed for.

I have had some interesting results with my aquatic hatchlings this year. Because of all my work with lighting for my stars, I went ahead and also put a 12.0 HO UVB tube above my hatchling turtle basking area, and extended it over a good portion of their tank. I always provide a lot of real and artificial plants in the water as hatchlings are very cryptic and prefer to stay hidden in plant cover with the ability to just poke their heads up for a breath. I also used a 65 watt incandescent for heat basking. Basically set up the same way as my stars. The difference was immediate and apparent. My hatchlings used to spend a good deal of time up on the basking area under the light - splashing into the water when I approached. Seemed normal. But I was always a bit frustrated on how prone they were to the rear margins of their shell curling upward a bit. As aquatics don't pyramid as a bone problem, I did though come to believe the curling was a similar thing as the new keratin growth dried too quickly. Since an aquatic lays new keratin along the entire underside of the scute, this would then force the edges upwards a bit.

WELL... This year NONE show this at all. And they bask on the basking platform probably less than 20% of the time I used to see hatchlings basking. They instead bask hanging in the plants at the water surface. They have become true cryptic baskers which I believe is far more natural. They rarely come out of the water exposing themselves on the basking rock, instead stay nice and secure (and wet) hanging in the water plants. They still have equally become more "tame" and rush over to me for food when I enter. They just do not bask and dry out as much.

I am believing the light we create is causing a lot of our tortoises to bask unnaturally - staying out exposed more than would be "normal". Probably especially redfoots! In an effort to give them the lower "forest" level of light, we are changing the whole environment of the hidden areas they would prefer and making that too dark.
 
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Mark, I've been looking into changing my whole lighting system in the tort house. I'm not happy with what I have, most plants won't grow which proves the lighting is wrong.
Bare in mind my tort house is 300sq ft and about 10ft high.
I was considering this lighting and then try and grow a low lying canopy, basically copy how I imagine the rain forest is, the bright sunlight grows a canopy in turn creating a darkish forest floor.
What do you think to this lighting? Or is there something better I can use.
I contacted Arcadia a while back about these and still not had a reply.

http://arcadia-reptile.com/superzoo-t5/
 

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I have one last question for you two Tom and Mark, I know my threads always go off topic but everything is connected, everything leads on to something else.

If a tort hatches at the beginning of a 3 month monsoon season how does it bask for that first 3 month period.
 

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I like what I see there! I like the high levels of 400-500nm light as well as the high UVs. That matches the spectral curve of sunlight much more. In a large enclosure like you have I would go with that, and then create you shaded areas below. I thing you will find plants will do much better with that as well.
 

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I have one last question for you two Tom and Mark, I know my threads always go off topic but everything is connected, everything leads on to something else.

If a tort hatches at the beginning of a 3 month monsoon season how does it bask for that first 3 month period.
Not sure I understand your question... There is plenty of UV available in the monsoon season. The temps are high. Staying hidden in plant cover, they can eat, hide, get enough UV, stay warm enough, all without moving much at all! As far as D3, there is plenty of UVB. Part of my point in the above posts, is in nature, less light does not necessarily mean a different distribution of wavelength of light. Simply less intensity. Still the UV and blues there more so than when we "create" lower light levels artificially.
 

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Not sure I understand your question... There is plenty of UV available in the monsoon season. The temps are high. Staying hidden in plant cover, they can eat, hide, get enough UV, stay warm enough, all without moving much at all! As far as D3, there is plenty of UVB. Part of my point in the above posts, is in nature, less light does not necessarily mean a different distribution of wavelength of light. Simply less intensity. Still the UV and blues there more so than when we "create" lower light levels artificially.
You answered what I wanted to hear.
They don't need to endure intense hot sun to absorb D3. Even with heavy rain, an overcast sky and whilst hidden in foliage they can still absorb UVB rays. Is that correct?
 

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You answered what I wanted to hear.
They don't need to endure intense hot sun to absorb D3. Even with heavy rain, an overcast sky and whilst hidden in foliage they can still absorb UVB rays. Is that correct?

The answer is yes, but to a degree. They wouldn't be getting a whole lot of D3 on a cloudy rainy day while hidden in the bushes, but there are plenty of sunny days even in monsoon season. Our tortoises do not need hours of strong UV every day. They only really need 20-30 minutes once or twice a week. And they can go weeks without any UV because they store it in their fat cells during the times they are producing it.
 
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