Dry start age limit

[Snapshotmartin]

Hi I was just wondering I have read a lot about the tortoises having a dryer start having a harder time of thriving, I was just wondering if a hatchling was kept around 40-60% humidity with a water bowl provided could there be much damage caused at only 5-6 weeks old? I wouldn’t say regular bathing was offered in this 5-6 weeks but couldn’t really find any info on the threads as to how early this damage can be done. Reason I ask is my baby arrives in the morning, I currently have a closed chamber at a consistent 80% with 82f cool side 88f hot side and a basking spot of 100 night temps are the same excluding the basking spot. Substrate is fine grade orchid bark, water bowl, plastic hide box without moss. Got a very varied diet and been growing safe weeds,grasses and succulents over the past few week in preparation for the arrival. I tried to get the tortoise ASAP for the reason of wanting to Start the warm humid way but 5-6 weeks was the earliest they would let it go. I am in the UK and this was about the best hatchling I could find given that the dry and hot rule with cold nights is most people’s idea of a party over here. i am up writing this as I’m currently too excited to sleep at the moment but have serious anxiety about maybe a dry start, I feel sometimes too much information can send you off for no reason but I can’t help but research the negatives and stuff that goes wrong over the other stuff first. Learn from peoples mistakes etc.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Is the new baby eating and drinking and is it alert?
You can generally tell early on.
Failure to thrive syndrome caused by lack of humidity shows itself most often as a tortoise that won't eat, has no energy and goes downhill. Eventually dying.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

If he is active and eating, I'd say those are great signs.

 

[Snapshotmartin]

I wouldn’t know until it arrives later on today. It was more just a general question as in how early can the damage be done. I have leopards who were UK bred and I imagine not started humid as it’s not yet a thing generally over here yet and they never had any issues as to be honest I’d not heard of the humidity thing until this forum although makes perfect sense to me now. Just thought if I’m going to finally get my dream animal I may aswell do it right. My family has Sulcatas that are getting on for nearly 40 years old and have had offspring never started humid and all have been fine so I guess my question is, in an ordinary world would a 6 week old hatchling have any major suffering at such a young age given its had a good diet and drinking water just off of humidity levels and dry substratealone

 

[KarenSoCal]

I don't know how long it would take for kidney damage. Weigh him weekly. When he passes 50 gms, you're free and clear.

And don't worry if he doesn't eat for a couple days at first. He needs to adjust to his new home.

 

[Snapshotmartin]

I don't know how long it would take for kidney damage. Weigh him weekly. When he passes 50 gms, you're free and clear.

And don't worry if he doesn't eat for a couple days at first. He needs to adjust to his new home.

So it arrived and still has its egg tooth it weighs a respectable 40g and has been stomping round the enclosure checking things out after a nice long warm soak in Reptoboost/vetark after the long overnight journey. Looks nice, clean and healthy. I guess I’ll know with the next few weeks if anything is problematic or not.

 

[Markw84]

The damage can actually happen, and normally does, very early - the way they are transitioned from egg to first enclosure their first 10 days. Show us a picture of the plastron. The way the yolk scar healed is quite telling. That baby looks quite a bit younger than 6 weeks. Caruncle normally gone in 3-4 weeks and should see widening growth seams by 4 weeks. Many sulcatas are 40g when they hatch.

Let's see a plastron shot

 

[Snapshotmartin]

The damage can actually happen, and normally does, very early - the way they are transitioned from egg to first enclosure their first 10 days. Show us a picture of the plastron. The way the yolk scar healed is quite telling. That baby looks quite a bit younger than 6 weeks. Caruncle normally gone in 3-4 weeks and should see widening growth seams by 4 weeks. Many sulcatas are 40g when they hatch.

Let's see a plastron shot

The age is just a guess on my part from the date they said they started to hatch out to now. I e never actually asked the question of exactly how old to the day all be it I know it was hatched in may. Hopefully the picture tells you what you need to know. You e got. E panicking now?‍

 

[Snapshotmartin]

The damage can actually happen, and normally does, very early - the way they are transitioned from egg to first enclosure their first 10 days. Show us a picture of the plastron. The way the yolk scar healed is quite telling. That baby looks quite a bit younger than 6 weeks. Caruncle normally gone in 3-4 weeks and should see widening growth seams by 4 weeks. Many sulcatas are 40g when they hatch.

Let's see a plastron shot

After looking to take the photo I wouldn’t say it’s very old either which could be a positive no?

 

[Markw84]

Since this comes up a lot - just to give perspective I will add a few photos of what my sulcatas look like at a very young age. I normally will not sell them until they pass 60g in weight, which normally is in about 4-5 weeks.

Here is a picture of a baby and how the plastron of a well started hatchling will look. This baby is right at 2 weeks old. Notice the scar where the yolk sac was absorbed is totally smooth and without wrinkles. This shows proper hydration and that the baby was never subjected to a dry substrate at the very early and critical stage.



Here's a picture of the group. they are between 2 and 2-1/2 weeks old. Notice the good growth you can see as they seams are already separating with that growth. The caruncle (egg tooth) is still visible on all of them.



A 3 week old baby. Caruncle still visible but nice growth.



At 4 weeks. Caruncle is gone but can't see in this picture I too to show the way new keratin grows in on a baby.



A 6 week old - at 75g.



So when choosing a baby sulcata, these are the things I would look for and they way I would want the baby to look.

Hopefully this will give some insight into what a properly growing sulcata baby will look like that has had a great starts.

For @Snapshotmartin - this can give you an idea of what type growth you will look for with your new baby. Despite it's start, as you get it to start growing - look for growth like this and you and your tortoise will be doing great.

 

[Markw84]

The age is just a guess on my part from the date they said they started to hatch out to now. I e never actually asked the question of exactly how old to the day all be it I know it was hatched in may. Hopefully the picture tells you what you need to know. You e got. E panicking now?‍

That actually does not look bad. The look of that scar would tell me it was started fairly well, but perhaps put into an enclosure too soon as what started as nice healing stalled and left a bit of a depressed look at the final stages of closing.

I have a hunch you little one will do just fine, especially now with you and the parameters you say you have set up for it!

Keep us posted.

 

[Snapshotmartin]

Since this comes up a lot - just to give perspective I will add a few photos of what my sulcatas look like at a very young age. I normally will not sell them until they pass 60g in weight, which normally is in about 4-5 weeks.

Here is a picture of a baby and how the plastron of a well started hatchling will look. This baby is right at 2 weeks old. Notice the scar where the yolk sac was absorbed is totally smooth and without wrinkles. This shows proper hydration and that the baby was never subjected to a dry substrate at the very early and critical stage.

View attachment 297065

Here's a picture of the group. they are between 2 and 2-1/2 weeks old. Notice the good growth you can see as they seams are already separating with that growth. The caruncle (egg tooth) is still visible on all of them.

View attachment 297067

A 3 week old baby. Caruncle still visible but nice growth.

View attachment 297068

At 4 weeks. Caruncle is gone but can't see in this picture I too to show the way new keratin grows in on a baby.

View attachment 297069

A 6 week old - at 75g.

View attachment 297070

So when choosing a baby sulcata, these are the things I would look for and they way I would want the baby to look.

Hopefully this will give some insight into what a properly growing sulcata baby will look like that has had a great starts.

For @Snapshotmartin - this can give you an idea of what type growth you will look for with your new baby. Despite it's start, as you get it to start growing - look for growth like this and you and your tortoise will be doing great.

Probability says mine was started dry then and things have just been stumped a little due to this. I’ll be doing my upmost to get things going and overcome any issues. One thing you have to understand is finding a baby in the UK is not an easy task in hand as most of what is sold over here are imported, or started dry. I’ve been looking for a long time to find a breeder that I could get one off ASAP after hatching and this is about the best I could find around. People are fairly against the humid starting over here unfortunately and give abuse to anyone who dares not use a table.

 

[Snapshotmartin]

That actually does not look bad. The look of that scar would tell me it was started fairly well, but perhaps put into an enclosure too soon as what started as nice healing stalled and left a bit of a depressed look at the final stages of closing.

I have a hunch you little one will do just fine, especially now with you and the parameters you say you have set up for it!

Keep us posted.

This is the humble abode for the first 3-6 months then shooting into a 8x4 duplicate I chose to build then build again so I could learn from any little hiccups on the first one plus I’ve enjoyed the experience of it too.

 

[Snapshotmartin]

That actually does not look bad. The look of that scar would tell me it was started fairly well, but perhaps put into an enclosure too soon as what started as nice healing stalled and left a bit of a depressed look at the final stages of closing.

I have a hunch you little one will do just fine, especially now with you and the parameters you say you have set up for it!

Keep us posted.

So far we haven’t been doing so good. Not very active barely touches food I’ve seen a few bits once and just sits in a corner facing the wall. I’ve covered food in cucumber juice watermelon juice offered Mazuri a large variety of weeds and grasses just not interested. I don’t stick around it’s in its own room i bath him by bringing the tub into the enclosure to minimise stress and literally only touch to put in and take out. Everything else is completely hands off I’ve settled In torts before and bred tegus for some years and something just doesn’t seem right to me. Also hasn’t passed a stool. Just seems crazy that it felt comfortable enough to get some food down it then sleeps out in the open for 36 hours straight and hasn’t budged atall.
cool side 82
hot side 88
basking spot offers 95-105
humidity is 80-84% with a 100% hide
t5 12% 39w uv strip at 30cm
75w flood bulb on an evo stat
150watt ceramic set at 82 for night heat (colder house in UK)
fine grade orchid bark
water bowl
food bowl
black plastic tub flipped over with a hole cut out for hide on cooler end.
Closed chamber set up with minimal air flow but ensure a 30 min air exchange while soaking

 

[Markw84]

@Snapshotmartin try putting some nice plants in the enclosure with overhanging fronds the tortoise can hide beneath. That is a very natural hide and comfortable for them. It is what they would naturally seek out and where they would spend 95% of their time. I use pothos ivy, spider plant, boston fern, prayer plant. All are tortoise safe and do fairly well in an warm and humid enclosure.

 

[KarenSoCal]

Does he drink at all while in his soaks?
You could try this:
Get some non-flavored Pedialyte, and a couple jars of strained or pureed baby food carrots.
Mix the Pedialyte 50/50 with water, and add a couple spoonfuls of the carrots.
Soak him in that solution. If he drinks any, it gives some nutrition. It has helped save the lives of babies.

 

[VegasJeff]

Forgive my ignorance, but are there any dry areas in the UK? I've been across the UK a few times (as that is where my dad's family is from) and it seemed nice and green everywhere I went.

I think the biggest challenge for raising tortoises in the UK would be the lower temperatures, especially in the winter (but you can compensate for this with the proper lighting and heating equipment).

 

[Snapshotmartin]

Forgive my ignorance, but are there any dry areas in the UK? I've been across the UK a few times (as that is where my dad's family is from) and it seemed nice and green everywhere I went.

I think the biggest challenge for raising tortoises in the UK would be the lower temperatures, especially in the winter (but you can compensate for this with the proper lighting and heating equipment).

It does rain a lot of the time and rarely gets hot hot outside an average summers day is in the low 20s Celsius a mid 20s is a scorcher for us. However this does not translate directly to good humidity generally from my experience. The humidity in my house is around 20-30% and can sometimes get into the 70s outside but the weather normally means it’s cold and raining to be in that region. A good average is 40-50% outdoors I’d say. One thing we are certainly not short off is wild grass and weeds everywhere you look, even down to every crack in every path you’ll find something that’s safe to feed.