Educate me: what causes vitamin A deficiency?

[SArchieIII]

Hello, I posted for the first time recently about my baby Russian having Vitamin A deficiency.
I have been given info about temperatures (I believe I was using the "standard ones" which were not specific to babies) so I have increased the temps accordingly and waiting to add a CHE stolen from my birds so that I can use it during winter time.

I waited and waited something like 20-odd years to adopt a tortoise, and although experience is definitely forged by practice, as reading can surely help, I also think it "can't be all", and I thought I was doing "okay?". I guess I am feeling horribly guilty.
I have been feeding foraged weeds, washed, pat dry-ish, and given directly after this process: red clover, dandelion, wheat grass, chickweed, kale, chicory, collard greens, pak choi, and one time 3 petals of from our organic garden (they are planted by us 5 years ago, from full bloom rose), romaine lettuce, and every now and then 1/2 wafer thin slice of cucumber... a pinch of calcium. (no added vitamins. Is this what I failed at?)

Is it really "just the temperature" [this is how it was: Basking temp 89.6 F and opposite side 79.2F (in C)] that has caused her to have this ailment now?
What "normally" causes vitamin A deficiency in tortoises?

@wellington kindly suggested to increase the temp to 95-100F around 38c I believe. All over temp 80F night​

I did so, thank you!

The Vet, that is following my tiny hard-shelled potato is supporting the tortoise and reptiles in our wildlife park here in Ireland He mentioned the incredible resilience of tortoises and that it might as well be possible that she has been unwell for a few months and only showing it now. He was happy to hear about her diet that Archie has been living, and suggested also to benefit from the amazing sun we are having at the moment (altho we are at 75.2F outside due to the breeze) to make sure she gets some real sun as well. So to avoid the chills I got a high-sided bucket and put her outside for a 30 min soak in warm water+electrolytes (which he gave us a pouch of loos Vetark Repto Boost).
She always stretches nicely in the water (similarly to how she basks under the light [with the previous temp - never under the light perpendicularly, always a bit off to the side, the basking bulb has always been an Arcadia normal shaped bulb, we shall see what she will do with the new temp].

I am probably focusing too much on "what have I done" instead of positively looking up at when she will be better... but so far, she is still not eating and yesterday was the first time pooping in a week or so. Before deciding to sleep a lot and stay hidden under the soil, she was eating fine, (maybe too much? as in maybe she stuffed herself and decided "y'all see ya" and aestivate?) , and doing her long laps around the enclosure 120cm x60cm (3.9x1.9 feet).
In the past 3 weeks she is active and roaming and doing things, only if I move her away from her hiding spot in a different environment, then she explore, she lift herself up, yawns, pees, and goes about, but she doesn't eat... at all.
I spotter her drinking though, and althogh the water for her soaking is just above the side scutes a little bit above, sometimes she pops her head below and exhales making bubbles, then brushes her eyes, and in one the third eyelid is not moving so the top and bottom blink but I cant see her eye, and the other one I can see a less than a third of her eye, and the blinking movement is there as well.
When she yawned I saw her tongue and mouth and it has a good normal colour... Vet said her shell and plastron is strong, and the weight increase means she has been growing nicely...

...tiny little guy... I don't know what else I can do QQ
Sorry for sounding as I sound to you, I am just going through some personal stuff with my health, and the last thing I want is causing pain to the pets that live with me... and Archie is family now.

Can she die due to this? Do I "just have to be patient"?
Will the recovery be slow as per tortoise things?
Should she be "blind" can she learn to live (granted I dont change the enclosure)?

She is currently in a smaller space with the temps suggested, so I can have her in a "fresh" place.
These animals have endured, and survived things the dinosaurs have not survived, I don't want to fail her again... I keep reading the articles I have been reading in this blog for a long time, and I can't find relief from feeling guilty.

Thanks for reading.
Picture of Archie when she joined us, her first meal (when "just a pinch" meant "Are you sure it is enough?" adds another pinch)

 

[Yvonne G]

Buy some liquid bird vitamins and add a few drops to the soaking water.

 

[SArchieIII]

I have that, thanks!
I didn't think about it, thanks also for clarifying also in my other post that Vitamin A is the first to go when they eat less.
thanks.

 

[Cathie G]

Also, from my understanding their digestive systems need enough warmth to digest properly and absorb the vitamins. So do the carrot soaks and what you've done with temps. It should work. I'm so glad Russians are resilient. That's just one of the reasons I chose one.

 

[wellington]

No, I didn't suggest fixing the temp to fix the deficiency. However, with our proper temps, they can not digest their food properly, which in a long way around, will cause all kinds of problem, including deficiencies.

 

[TammyJ]

No, I didn't suggest fixing the temp to fix the deficiency. However, with our proper temps, they can not digest their food properly, which in a long way around, will cause all kinds of problem, including deficiencies.

That's WITHOUT proper temps, they cannot digest their food. Just a little typo there, Barb😊

 

[wellington]

That's WITHOUT proper temps, they cannot digest their food. Just a little typo there, Barb😊

Thanks for catching that.
I don't know if it's my newer phone or my fingers, but that happens a lot to me. Usually I can catch it.

 

[TammyJ]

Thanks for catching that.
I don't know if it's my newer phone or my fingers, but that happens a lot to me. Usually I can catch it.

That's all good. The reason I usually don't make typos is because first, my OCD to keep checking my posts, and second, my long and undistinguished career as a proof reader and typist!

 

[Tom]

Hello, I posted for the first time recently about my baby Russian having Vitamin A deficiency.
I have been given info about temperatures (I believe I was using the "standard ones" which were not specific to babies) so I have increased the temps accordingly and waiting to add a CHE stolen from my birds so that I can use it during winter time.

I waited and waited something like 20-odd years to adopt a tortoise, and although experience is definitely forged by practice, as reading can surely help, I also think it "can't be all", and I thought I was doing "okay?". I guess I am feeling horribly guilty.
I have been feeding foraged weeds, washed, pat dry-ish, and given directly after this process: red clover, dandelion, wheat grass, chickweed, kale, chicory, collard greens, pak choi, and one time 3 petals of from our organic garden (they are planted by us 5 years ago, from full bloom rose), romaine lettuce, and every now and then 1/2 wafer thin slice of cucumber... a pinch of calcium. (no added vitamins. Is this what I failed at?)

Is it really "just the temperature" [this is how it was: Basking temp 89.6 F and opposite side 79.2F (in C)] that has caused her to have this ailment now?
What "normally" causes vitamin A deficiency in tortoises?

I did so, thank you!

The Vet, that is following my tiny hard-shelled potato is supporting the tortoise and reptiles in our wildlife park here in Ireland He mentioned the incredible resilience of tortoises and that it might as well be possible that she has been unwell for a few months and only showing it now. He was happy to hear about her diet that Archie has been living, and suggested also to benefit from the amazing sun we are having at the moment (altho we are at 75.2F outside due to the breeze) to make sure she gets some real sun as well. So to avoid the chills I got a high-sided bucket and put her outside for a 30 min soak in warm water+electrolytes (which he gave us a pouch of loos Vetark Repto Boost).
She always stretches nicely in the water (similarly to how she basks under the light [with the previous temp - never under the light perpendicularly, always a bit off to the side, the basking bulb has always been an Arcadia normal shaped bulb, we shall see what she will do with the new temp].

I am probably focusing too much on "what have I done" instead of positively looking up at when she will be better... but so far, she is still not eating and yesterday was the first time pooping in a week or so. Before deciding to sleep a lot and stay hidden under the soil, she was eating fine, (maybe too much? as in maybe she stuffed herself and decided "y'all see ya" and aestivate?) , and doing her long laps around the enclosure 120cm x60cm (3.9x1.9 feet).
In the past 3 weeks she is active and roaming and doing things, only if I move her away from her hiding spot in a different environment, then she explore, she lift herself up, yawns, pees, and goes about, but she doesn't eat... at all.
I spotter her drinking though, and althogh the water for her soaking is just above the side scutes a little bit above, sometimes she pops her head below and exhales making bubbles, then brushes her eyes, and in one the third eyelid is not moving so the top and bottom blink but I cant see her eye, and the other one I can see a less than a third of her eye, and the blinking movement is there as well.
When she yawned I saw her tongue and mouth and it has a good normal colour... Vet said her shell and plastron is strong, and the weight increase means she has been growing nicely...

...tiny little guy... I don't know what else I can do QQ
Sorry for sounding as I sound to you, I am just going through some personal stuff with my health, and the last thing I want is causing pain to the pets that live with me... and Archie is family now.

Can she die due to this? Do I "just have to be patient"?
Will the recovery be slow as per tortoise things?
Should she be "blind" can she learn to live (granted I dont change the enclosure)?

She is currently in a smaller space with the temps suggested, so I can have her in a "fresh" place.
These animals have endured, and survived things the dinosaurs have not survived, I don't want to fail her again... I keep reading the articles I have been reading in this blog for a long time, and I can't find relief from feeling guilty.

Thanks for reading.
Picture of Archie when she joined us, her first meal (when "just a pinch" meant "Are you sure it is enough?" adds another pinch)

View attachment 358520

It is very rare for any tortoise to suffer from vitamin A deficiency. Nearly everything they eat is loaded with it. This is a turtle issue in most cases. This is a sign of a vet that doesn't know tortoises, and it is very common world wide.

Start here for more explanation, and look for the temperate species care sheet near the bottom:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[TeamZissou]

I agree with Tom, low vitamin A is extremely rare in tortoises given the high amount of vitamin A precursors (carotenoids). Based on this and your other thread, it seems you were feeding a good diet to your tortoise. Your description also doesn't match symptoms of low vitamin A, which are excessive eye swelling, aural abscesses, and throat infections like stomatitis. It happens most often in aquatic turtles fed poor diets.

Tortoises are more at risk for vitamin A overdose via excessive supplementation with pre-formed vitamin A like retinyl acetate. Shots that vets give actually have extremely high levels of this type of vitamin A and have caused overdose and death when given at high enough levels. On a longer timescale, vitamin A overdose is possible if tortosies are fed supplements containing retinyl acetate. This manifests as excessive skin sloughing but can be remedied by stoping the supplement. Unfortunately, vets often do not know about the nuances between turtles and tortoises, so when a tortoise is presented to them, they often give a vitamin shot by default. While this is unlikely to affect turtles which may be deficient, it can be very risky for tortoises.

If you choose to supplement, make sure to use one that has beta carotene as the vitamin A (precursor) component, and not one with retinyl acetate, aka "vitamin A supplement" or simply "vitamin A" on the label. One example that is safe is RepCal Herptivite.

 

[Tom]

I agree with Tom, low vitamin A is extremely rare in tortoises given the high amount of vitamin A precursors (carotenoids). Based on this and your other thread, it seems you were feeding a good diet to your tortoise. Your description also doesn't match symptoms of low vitamin A, which are excessive eye swelling, aural abscesses, and throat infections like stomatitis. It happens most often in aquatic turtles fed poor diets.

Tortoises are more at risk for vitamin A overdose via excessive supplementation with pre-formed vitamin A like retinyl acetate. Shots that vets give actually have extremely high levels of this type of vitamin A and have caused overdose and death when given at high enough levels. On a longer timescale, vitamin A overdose is possible if tortosies are fed supplements containing retinyl acetate. This manifests as excessive skin sloughing but can be remedied by stoping the supplement. Unfortunately, vets often do not know about the nuances between turtles and tortoises, so when a tortoise is presented to them, they often give a vitamin shot by default. While this is unlikely to affect turtles which may be deficient, it can be very risky for tortoises.

If you choose to supplement, make sure to use one that has beta carotene as the vitamin A (precursor) component, and not one with retinyl acetate, aka "vitamin A supplement" or simply "vitamin A" on the label. One example that is safe is RepCal Herptivite.

Very informative and, as usual, eloquently worded. Thank you for sharing this info and making all of us just a little bit smarter.

 

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

I think that vets needing to make boat payments are behind most of the diagnoses of vitamin a deficiency among tortoises.

Jamie

 

[Tom]

I think that vets needing to make boat payments are behind most of the diagnoses of vitamin a deficiency among tortoises.

Jamie

I ponder what is worse: Your theory, or incompetence/ignorance?

This sort of thing makes me really appreciate the good ones.

 

[jsheffield - In Memoriam]

I ponder what is worse: Your theory, or incompetence/ignorance?

This sort of thing makes me really appreciate the good ones.

My local vets know almost nothing about tortoises and haven't seemed embarrassed when their incompetence/ignorance is exposed during conversations about the tortoises that I live with...

Jamie

 

[Cathie G]

Very informative and, as usual, eloquently worded. Thank you for sharing this info and making all of us just a little bit smarter.

Yes. And I really like that he recommended a specific product that's safe. I don't remember seeing that before on that subject..

 

[SArchieIII]

Thank you all.
This vet is new to me, and was suggested due to his "experience with tortoise and reptiles", he has not been charging me more than the first consultation, and has been giving me electrolytes powder and eye drops for free.
I appreciate though that some vets (like the one that used to help our dogs) are focused only on their income.
Tortoise is NEVER in contact with our dogs or birds btw, and we never interact with tortoise without washing our hands and wash them again after interacting with Archie.

Thanks for the guide link provided, I did fix the temperature immediately after suggested in my first post.

Yesterday I could notice the third eyelid in one eye slightly more open.
Thanks for all the info @TeamZissou .
she has one eye completely closed (main eyelids - and the third closed as well) the other eye I can see the black of her eye just because the third eyelid is slightly open.
She does the "motion of blinking" but nothing really happens in either of her eyes, and she also does the "brushing motion of her front legs removing something from the eye" like if we were to brush our sleeve to our face/nose. Every so often the eyes appear inflated from the inside, and shortly after it had disappeared (the bulging) and they become normal and in line (not protruding) with her adorable grumpy face on both sides.

She has yet to eat, but in 5 days she has pooped an appropriate size (to tort) poo twice.
What else could it be?
She is still not eating, she has strength on her legs, neck, and when placed back in the enclosure, she has a full lap, or half a lap and dig herself to nap.

We even added fresh carrot juice (from a masticating juice machine, we have a smol one) added to warm water so that the whole liquid mixture was comfortable and she had a soak in it.

I keep growing worried, and the Vet last time, has given us eye drops, tears, and antibiotics, but still no really visible improvement.

I dont know what to think, and I am feeling so sorry for being unable to help her.

 

[SArchieIII]

No, I didn't suggest fixing the temp to fix the deficiency. However, with our proper temps, they can not digest their food properly, which in a long way around, will cause all kinds of problem, including deficiencies.

I understood it wasn't "the solution", but certainly something that needed adjusting, so this is why I added it to the list of things I took action