Esmeralda needs surgery

Yourlocalpoet

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So I got a call from the vet today and the blood results confirm their suspicions that Es has pre ovulatory follicular stasis and needs to have an ovariectomy.

Es has zero clinical symptoms, other than the fact she thinks she has eggs to lay and keeps digging nests, but I saw the follicles myself on the ultrasound.

I know it’s ridiculous but I’m pissed. Pissed that to my knowledge I’ve done everything right here raising this tortoise, and yet she has a reproductive disease that might be my fault. Apparently the etiology is unknown, but proposed causes are lack of males, or suboptimal husbandry/nutrition.

As she’s never been mated, I’m guilty of the former, but I certainly didn’t think the latter. I know my climate is not suitable for this species, but she is not poorly maintained. It kinda hurts.

Obviously, I’m worried about the surgery, but the vet told me it was ‘routine’ surgery and they’d performed many surgeries for this and other similar things via plastron osteotomy, with positive outcomes. I still don’t feel any better about it though.

@Jodie, I know Scarlett had a plastron osteotomy years ago; how did she recover? Did you lose your mind at the prospect of this or am I just overreacting?
 

Sleppo

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Sorry she's going through this, I have been reading up on this topic lately too as I presume one of my females may have the same thing going on. There really doesn't seem to be a lot of info on it on this forum which is making me think it's rare or commonly misdiagnosed. Good luck with the surgery I am interested in hearing some input from the other members.
 

Yourlocalpoet

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Sorry she's going through this, I have been reading up on this topic lately too as I presume one of my females may have the same thing going on. There really doesn't seem to be a lot of info on it on this forum which is making me think it's rare or commonly misdiagnosed. Good luck with the surgery I am interested in hearing some input from the other members.

Thanks for your reply.

Why do you suspect your female has it?

There doesn’t seem to be much information on it at all, despite my efforts to research online, although it seems common in bearded dragons and iguanas.

The vet appeared quite knowledgable, and reassured me that he’d done this surgery multiple times in turtles, tortoises, lizards etc with positive recovery. He was a little too blasé for my liking actually but I suppose it’s trivial to a professional who has no investment in the animal.

The diagnosis, from what I understand is purely presumptive based on history and diagnostic testing. Although, I expected her to have some outward symptoms: not eating, not defecating, weakness in hind legs, lethargy etc. None have been presented - she’s just acting gravid.

I’m not expecting much input from forum members, as I asked in a previous post if anyone had any experience, but go no replies, so I don’t think anyone has.
 

Sleppo

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I have 2 mature female Russians and a few weeks ago one randomly started digging nests. Neither have ever laid eggs or been with a male. She's still eating and acting normal but is digging the nests on and off. I'm keeping a close eye on her for now and doing online research. I figure I'll take her in for an x-ray/blood work if she starts acting like something is wrong, I am hoping she just lays an unfertilized egg and is done.

I am not too keen on my vet either, the last time I had them in the vet literally pulled out a book in front of me to refer to. Made me very nervous!

Hoping for the best for both of us and that we get some replies.
 

Yourlocalpoet

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I have 2 mature female Russians and a few weeks ago one randomly started digging nests. Neither have ever laid eggs or been with a male. She's still eating and acting normal but is digging the nests on and off. I'm keeping a close eye on her for now and doing online research. I figure I'll take her in for an x-ray/blood work if she starts acting like something is wrong, I am hoping she just lays an unfertilized egg and is done.

And the most likely outcome is that she will - I only went for the X Ray, as the nesting went on far too long with no fruition.

I am not too keen on my vet either, the last time I had them in the vet literally pulled out a book in front of me to refer to. Made me very nervous!

That would make me nervous too. Exotic vets are few and far between where I live, but this one came recommended from a friend.
 

Yourlocalpoet

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Wish I could be of help but I have never even heard of this before. To me the idea of surgery on an animal that is acting completely healthy seems like a bad idea. But I’m not a vet

Thanks for your input. Of course, and surgery, in any situation is the last thing I want. Just to clarify - she appears healthy, but she has been digging nests intermittently now for months, but has no eggs to lay. That’s not normal. She also has 2-2.5cm follicles on her ovaries, that should have ovulated and haven’t. Believe me, I’m not taking surgery lightly.
 

ascott

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And the most likely outcome is that she will - I only went for the X Ray, as the nesting went on far too long with no fruition.



That would make me nervous too. Exotic vets are few and far between where I live, but this one came recommended from a friend.
And you are certain you have "two" females right? I would super get a second opinion and not give the new vet any of the "diagnosis" from this vet to them.....just present the same info as you did and offer no opinion....I also would not do surgery on a tortoise that is eating/basking/mobile...perhaps offer up some private spots and alone time for each tort..perhaps she is holding off due to not feeling the rightness of dropping eggs????
 

Yourlocalpoet

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And you are certain you have "two" females right? I would super get a second opinion and not give the new vet any of the "diagnosis" from this vet to them.....just present the same info as you did and offer no opinion....I also would not do surgery on a tortoise that is eating/basking/mobile...perhaps offer up some private spots and alone time for each tort..perhaps she is holding off due to not feeling the rightness of dropping eggs????

No, it’s @Sleppo who has two females. The tortoise scheduled for surgery is my 15year old Leopard, who is housed alone and always has been.

It’s difficult because while she doesn’t appear ‘sick’ there is definitely something wrong, and I did consider a second opinion, but if the diagnosis is correct, sorting this out early before she does become sick seems smart to me.

I don’t know. I don’t want to do it, but I’m not a reptile vet, and if I ignore their advice and then this diagnosis is correct and it progresses and gets worse, I won’t be able to forgive myself. I want to do what’s best for the tortoise; it’s difficult.
 

ascott

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No, it’s @Sleppo who has two females. The tortoise scheduled for surgery is my 15year old Leopard, who is housed alone and always has been.

It’s difficult because while she doesn’t appear ‘sick’ there is definitely something wrong, and I did consider a second opinion, but if the diagnosis is correct, sorting this out early before she does become sick seems smart to me.

I don’t know. I don’t want to do it, but I’m not a reptile vet, and if I ignore their advice and then this diagnosis is correct and it progresses and gets worse, I won’t be able to forgive myself. I want to do what’s best for the tortoise; it’s difficult.
My apology on the mix up of the two members....

However, as you are worried about not taking the advise of one vet....in fear they may be right. I would also be equally concerned that the "diagnosis" is not correct and then on that side of the coin, you will also be placing the tort in a harmful situation that is not necessary...you know? How long has the tort been digging? Months? What does that mean? I ask because, temp change, ground change, maturity and such can create behaviors in a creature that are exploratory and not necessary a problem....well, you are the one in complete control of this forced captive animal, so you will decide what you feel....I wish you and the tortoise much health and good luck :)
 

Yourlocalpoet

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However, as you are worried about not taking the advise of one vet....in fear they may be right. I would also be equally concerned that the "diagnosis" is not correct and then on that side of the coin, you will also be placing the tort in a harmful situation that is not necessary...you know?

Thanks for your input, @ascott and I understand what you’re saying. If I decided on what I feel I wouldn’t have the surgery, as I’m emotionally invested; this is my pet, I love her, and I’m worried. However, I’m a rational person, and I work in logic and evidence and I have been presented with evidence of the diagnosis (x Ray, ultrasound and blood work) so it seems unreasoned for me to doubt this.


How long has the tort been digging? Months? What does that mean? I ask because, temp change, ground change, maturity and such can create behaviors in a creature that are exploratory and not necessary a problem....well, you are the one in complete control of this forced captive animal, so you will decide what you feel....I wish you and the tortoise much health and good luck :)

She’s been digging nests since April, the only outward symptom I have observed, and my initial reason for the vet visit. He said the follicular development in the ovaries are most likely making her think she’s gravid, when she’s not.

Thank you for your well wishes, it’s much appreciated.
 

Lyn W

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I'm so sorry to hear that Esmeralda and you are going through this.
Please don't blame yourself it probably isn't anything you've done or not done, I know that Tom thinks highly of your methods and recommended that I contact you when I first had my leopard.
I can't help but @Yvonne G is breeding leopards so may have some experience of this or maybe @Tom can help. I think @Team Gomberg also keeps leopards.
Wishing you and Es all the very best for a good recovery.
 

Tom

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So I got a call from the vet today and the blood results confirm their suspicions that Es has pre ovulatory follicular stasis and needs to have an ovariectomy.

Es has zero clinical symptoms, other than the fact she thinks she has eggs to lay and keeps digging nests, but I saw the follicles myself on the ultrasound.

I know it’s ridiculous but I’m pissed. Pissed that to my knowledge I’ve done everything right here raising this tortoise, and yet she has a reproductive disease that might be my fault. Apparently the etiology is unknown, but proposed causes are lack of males, or suboptimal husbandry/nutrition.

As she’s never been mated, I’m guilty of the former, but I certainly didn’t think the latter. I know my climate is not suitable for this species, but she is not poorly maintained. It kinda hurts.

Obviously, I’m worried about the surgery, but the vet told me it was ‘routine’ surgery and they’d performed many surgeries for this and other similar things via plastron osteotomy, with positive outcomes. I still don’t feel any better about it though.

@Jodie, I know Scarlett had a plastron osteotomy years ago; how did she recover? Did you lose your mind at the prospect of this or am I just overreacting?


Sounds like an over-reaction to me. Its summer. This is when they lay. There should be active follicles in anticipation of a male finding her. Digging test holes is common in leopards in my experience. I see no reason for surgery of any kind.

If on the other hand eggs develop and she won't or can't lay them, egg-binding is potentially fatal. X-ray will reveal if this is the case, but I wouldn't anticipate this in your situation. If egg binding occurs, deal with it then. If this is just an antsy female that is wanting to breed, I'd leave her alone.
 

Yvonne G

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I have a female digging test nests currently too, but it never occurred to me something is wrong with the female. It's always been something wrong with the nest. The first two tests had small, tough roots that she couldn't dig past, and the third test had a big rock in it.

I certainly would NOT opt for surgery. I'd adopt a wait and see attitude.
 

Yourlocalpoet

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Sounds like an over-reaction to me. Its summer. This is when they lay. There should be active follicles in anticipation of a male finding her. Digging test holes is common in leopards in my experience. I see no reason for surgery of any kind.

Hi Tom, thanks for your input. I’m aware that digging test holes was common, but I was under the impression that nest digging meant that eggs were likely to happen soon, if not imminent. Is that not the case? It’s just that she’s been been doing this since April, and the X-Ray last week showed no eggs.
 

Yourlocalpoet

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I'm so sorry to hear that Esmeralda and you are going through this.
Please don't blame yourself it probably isn't anything you've done or not done, I know that Tom thinks highly of your methods and recommended that I contact you when I first had my leopard.
I can't help but @Yvonne G is breeding leopards so may have some experience of this or maybe @Tom can help. I think @Team Gomberg also keeps leopards.
Wishing you and Es all the very best for a good recovery.

Thank you for being so sweet, Lyn. I’m a little stressed!
 

Yourlocalpoet

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I have a female digging test nests currently too, but it never occurred to me something is wrong with the female. It's always been something wrong with the nest. The first two tests had small, tough roots that she couldn't dig past, and the third test had a big rock in it.

I certainly would NOT opt for surgery. I'd adopt a wait and see attitude.

Hi Yvonne, thank you for that. I pretty much just asked Tom the same, but what’s the time frame between digging and laying roughly like? I thought nesting implied imminent laying. She’s been digging for 4 months almost now, and there are no eggs inside her as of an X -Ray last week. She’s just done another one this afternoon - dug up a 4 year old lavender bush and roots in the process!
 

TammyJ

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Tom and Yvonne are amazing. I would definitely do as they are suggesting. Hold off on the surgery. Wait and see as long as the tortoise is not displaying any indication of illness.
 

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