Extreme Aggression/Extreme Territorial behaviour

[MythrilDelight]

Hey all, I have a 6-8 year old Hermann’s tortoise. He is a rehome who had poor husbandry and poor diet. He was also thought to be a she. When we took him in a year ago, he was extremely docile. He loved to be held and would cuddle up against people. He was calm and never bit. I had figured it was because he probably felt yucky from years of poor diet and husbandry.

Once I got his diet corrected and a tortoise table with proper husbandry, we found his personality started to show. We quickly found out that “she” was very much a “he”. He would almost obsessively hump anything and everything. It didn’t take much for him to open the floodgates. He had a few moments during breeding season that he was charging, head-butting and biting, so he was given space and many forms of enrichment to keep him occupied. I attributed his personality change to him feeling better.

We recently went on vacation for a week and had to board him at a well known boarder in town. I’m not sure what his tank looked like but he apparently got everything he needed. He apparently never tried to bite or head-butt anyone and just spent a lot of his time pacing the tank. The boarder is above a reptile store so I don’t think there was a lot of human interaction during the day.

When we took him home, that’s when the problems started. He has become EXTREMELY territorial of his table and extremely aggressive. Even something as simple as changing his water, giving him his food or cleaning up pools, has him charging from the other side of the tank to bite us. He stopped his small nips and now bites to draw blood, often latching on and pulling into his shell. If you’re cleaning up poop, he will head-butt your hand or try to bite. He stretches his neck out and even stretches upward on the tips of his toes to try and bite. He will bite clothes and toes, toys and towels during bath time. He bit a towel after a bath so hard and refused to let go. I tried gentle pulling it to get him to release but he just pulled it into his shell. It was like playing tug of war with an angry shelled puppy. This is completely out of character for him. Even myself, who used to be the only person he DIDN’T try to bite…he goes after me too.

How do we fix or lesson this behaviour? My kids are now afraid of him and if there’s anything anyone could suggest to help him calm down a bit…would be greatly appreciated. I feel like it’s a mix of him being territorial and it being that time of the season. I am not one to rehome just because of a behaviour that could be easily managed.

Help!

 

[RandyTortoise]

Hey all, I have a 6-8 year old Hermann’s tortoise. He is a rehome who had poor husbandry and poor diet. He was also thought to be a she. When we took him in a year ago, he was extremely docile. He loved to be held and would cuddle up against people. He was calm and never bit. I had figured it was because he probably felt yucky from years of poor diet and husbandry.

Once I got his diet corrected and a tortoise table with proper husbandry, we found his personality started to show. We quickly found out that “she” was very much a “he”. He would almost obsessively hump anything and everything. It didn’t take much for him to open the floodgates. He had a few moments during breeding season that he was charging, head-butting and biting, so he was given space and many forms of enrichment to keep him occupied. I attributed his personality change to him feeling better.

We recently went on vacation for a week and had to board him at a well known boarder in town. I’m not sure what his tank looked like but he apparently got everything he needed. He apparently never tried to bite or head-butt anyone and just spent a lot of his time pacing the tank. The boarder is above a reptile store so I don’t think there was a lot of human interaction during the day.

When we took him home, that’s when the problems started. He has become EXTREMELY territorial of his table and extremely aggressive. Even something as simple as changing his water, giving him his food or cleaning up pools, has him charging from the other side of the tank to bite us. He stopped his small nips and now bites to draw blood, often latching on and pulling into his shell. If you’re cleaning up poop, he will head-butt your hand or try to bite. He stretches his neck out and even stretches upward on the tips of his toes to try and bite. He will bite clothes and toes, toys and towels during bath time. He bit a towel after a bath so hard and refused to let go. I tried gentle pulling it to get him to release but he just pulled it into his shell. It was like playing tug of war with an angry shelled puppy. This is completely out of character for him. Even myself, who used to be the only person he DIDN’T try to bite…he goes after me too.

How do we fix or lesson this behaviour? My kids are now afraid of him and if there’s anything anyone could suggest to help him calm down a bit…would be greatly appreciated. I feel like it’s a mix of him being territorial and it being that time of the season. I am not one to rehome just because of a behaviour that could be easily managed.

Help!

That is the weirdest thing I have ever heard of with any tortoise. I have no idea what to say. I wonder what would be his personality if he were kept with a group of Hermanns so he had multiple other tortoises to occupy his mind? Wow. I have no idea what is happening.
That having been said, I would love to have an aggressive tortoise. It would be interesting!

 

[Yvonne G]

I know your climate isn't great for tortoises, but a nice, safe outdoor habitat would do wonders for his attitude.

 

[MythrilDelight]

I know your climate isn't great for tortoises, but a nice, safe outdoor habitat would do wonders for his attitude.

He has an outdoor enclosure he goes into when the weather has been nice. We have had quite a few fantastically warm days and the last few have been stormy.

On slightly cooler days than the heatwave days, he does get monitored outdoor time just to let him get some energy out…but he just follows whoever is out and sits at their feet.

 

[MythrilDelight]

That is the weirdest thing I have ever heard of with any tortoise. I have no idea what to say. I wonder what would be his personality if he were kept with a group of Hermanns so he had multiple other tortoises to occupy his mind? Wow. I have no idea what is happening.
That having been said, I would love to have an aggressive tortoise. It would be interesting!

Now this feels like a controversial suggestion and I’m sure there will be a lot of strong opinions. Let it be known that we are NOT considering this by any means.

Our vet said he seems like he’s a very virile male and that some are just a bit extra hormonal. He said oftentimes they end up being surrendered and rehomed because they become hard to handle. Again, we dont give up so rehoming is not an option for us.

He has suggested a hormonal implant much like a bird would receive. He claims some people swear by it and claim it works really well but it’s an expensive option for a 50/50 treatment that may not help. He then suggested neutering him in hopes it would calm him down. He did mention that he has had success neutering tortoises endoscopically and suggested it. Again, not an option.

We just aren’t sure why he’s so excessively aggressive. I wondered if his experience at the boarder was less than what was expected and it affected him. I have a video of him head butting. I also have a video of the towel behaviour. I was told they don’t like the colours black or red but he attacks anything and everything.

I don’t know if he just needs to be around other Hermann’s but I’m at a loss. I’m hoping someone can help

 

[MythrilDelight]

Here’s a video. We were getting him ready for bed and he was still pacing his table furiously. He was not calming down whatsoever. I turned the lights out and he was still pacing in the dark.

I put him in his carrier on a towel in hopes that he was just overstimulated and it would calm him down a bit. He went absolutely nuts biting the towel to the point where he’s putting holes in it. I put the towel in his tank, he sat there biting it and holding it in his mouth until he calmed down and went to his sleep spot. He’s not grunting or huffing, not humping the towel, or showing any mating behaviours that I can tell…it’s just pure aggression. He does this to people’s clothes if they pick him up too.

I’m seriously wondering if something happened at the boarder while we were gone…

 

[Tom]

He wasn't doing it the boarding place because he was out of sorts with the move. I agree with what your vet said. I see males like this from time to time. I call them "super males". Just pick him up and put him in a tub when you need to service the enclosure. Just pick him up any time you don't want him biting. Or just keep your hands away from his mouth.

Yvonne wasn't suggesting outside time. She was suggesting a large outdoor enclosure. that the tortoise could live in during the warmer months. With a proper shelter he could stay out most of the year, and then brumate indoors in a fridge over winter.

No tortoise should be free roaming outside. It's not safe and it can't be made safe. Everyone thinks they are watching closely and that nothing bad will happen, and then it does happen. Make an enclosure.

I explain this outdoor housing and show pictures of the insulated temperature controlled shelter in this thread:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I am no expert in tortoise hormones, but maybe there were other tortoises at the boarders that he could see or smell?

 

[wellington]

Just an idea. Find a smooth tortoise figurine and place in with him. Even a tortoise size smooth rock will do. Will he try to breed it or just fight it? If he just keeps trying to fight it then remove it. But give it a couple days. Maybe humping it will help his behavior.

 

[MythrilDelight]

Just an idea. Find a smooth tortoise figurine and place in with him. Even a tortoise size smooth rock will do. Will he try to breed it or just fight it? If he just keeps trying to fight it then remove it. But give it a couple days. Maybe humping it will help his behavior.

He has a few “girlfriends” in his tank. He actually hasn’t been actively humping anything since he got back. It’s…odd.

He used to try to breed the rocks…now he just tries to fight them

 

[MythrilDelight]

I am no expert in tortoise hormones, but maybe there were other tortoises at the boarders that he could see or smell?

That’s what I thought too but they claim they didn’t have any other tortoises being boarded at the same time. They only had a large cherry foot downstairs in the shop.

I’m not sure how keep their sense of smell is

 

[wellington]

Darn. Was hoping that hadn't been tried already and it would of helped.

 

[MythrilDelight]

Darn. Was hoping that hadn't been tried already and it would have helped.

He used to go nuts on the rocks… That’s why we had to have multiple lol. He used to just open the floodgates if you picked him up…even if it was just just to put him in a carrier to clean his tank. It wasn’t all the time but during breeding season it was awful.I

On the drive to the vet for his pre-boarding wellness check, he soaked a blanket and a puppy pad and then soaked to the vets table. It was quite disgustingly excessive lol. He never squeaked or made any noises. He just let it all go.

Since he’s been back, he hasn’t tried to hump anything. Maybe he’s just frustrated lol?

 

[MythrilDelight]

Yvonne wasn't suggesting outside time. She was suggesting a large outdoor enclosure. that the tortoise could live in during the warmer months. With a proper shelter he could stay out most of the year, and then brumate indoors in a fridge over winter.

No tortoise should be free roaming outside. It's not safe and it can't be made safe. Everyone thinks they are watching closely and that nothing bad will happen, and then it does happen. Make an enclosure.

He has an outdoor enclosure he goes into when it is warm enough. We have had some extreme weather at the beginning of the month that brought torrential downpours and hail. We are also dealing with a lot of wildfire smoke and it unfortunately rolled in again today. It’s awful and I’ve been afraid to put him out because he has decreased lung capacity due to his shell.

Is it still ok to put him out on these days? Also, what temperature is the lowest they could handle outside

 

[wellington]

He used to go nuts on the rocks… That’s why we had to have multiple lol. He used to just open the floodgates if you picked him up…even if it was just just to put him in a carrier to clean his tank. It wasn’t all the time but during breeding season it was awful.I

On the drive to the vet for his pre-boarding wellness check, he soaked a blanket and a puppy pad and then soaked to the vets table. It was quite disgustingly excessive lol. He never squeaked or made any noises. He just let it all go.

Since he’s been back, he hasn’t tried to hump anything. Maybe he’s just frustrated lol?

Oh wow, that is disgusting lol
Super male.
I think I would give him some time. Try all suggestions, but give each one at least a couple weeks or more to see if it helps. Don't expect anything work right away. I think I would give him the next winter. Then if he is the same after winter, I would opt for neutering.

 

[Tom]

He has an outdoor enclosure he goes into when it is warm enough. We have had some extreme weather at the beginning of the month that brought torrential downpours and hail. We are also dealing with a lot of wildfire smoke and it unfortunately rolled in again today. It’s awful and I’ve been afraid to put him out because he has decreased lung capacity due to his shell.

Is it still ok to put him out on these days? Also, what temperature is the lowest they could handle outside

I wouldn't put him out with the smoke either. They aren't as sensitive as birds, but its still not good for them.

Temps depend on several factors. If it's sunny and dry, then cooler temps are still okay, say 60F. If its overcast and it rained heavy yesterday so the ground is still all wet, then I would want it warmer, say 70+F. The tortoises behavior will be a good indicator too. If the tortoise moves to shelter or a corner and goes to sleep, then it's probably to arm enough. If the tortoise is active and grazing, then temps are probably good.

Glad to hear he has an enclosure. So many people don't and we see tortoise get lost all the time.

 

[MythrilDelight]

Sorry this is long….

So we were told that his aggression seems food related and that we needed to add more grass. Said that his aggression was likely a nutrient deficiency or that there wasn’t enough “filling” foods.

His previous owner fed him almost strictly lettuce and fruits. We immediately were feeding him a variety of greens: escarole, endive, arugula, bok choy. For vegetables, he got: cactus pad, butternut squash, zucchini, carrot and a small amount of red pepper as a rare treat. He then got a small amount of either cilantro or mint. For grass, he got rehydrated Arcadia tortoise grass that come in the blocks.

We were told to add Timothy Hay to his tank, so we did. We were told to give him cuttlebones (we previously dusted food with calcium), so we added one on warm and cool side. He pooped on one and refuses to acknowledge the other. We were told to give him a chipped clay dish to break for stress relief and grind his beak down, his beak looks fine and no interest in dish. We were told to not reward him for wall surfing, we don’t interact unless he flips himself. We were told to only pick him up once a day for a short period of time, on a schedule and wait until he is calm. We pick him up half an hour after he wakes up and basks for a bit, just to say good morning. He is perfectly calm, calmly walks over, noses our hand, puts his arm up before climbing onto our hand…even then after 5 min he goes back because he’s biting and tearing at our clothes.

He is STILL a Shelled Devil…or Tiny Terrorist as my girls call him. What am I doing wrong??