FRIENDLY discussion on taking turtles from the wild

[Rob1985]

MODERATOR NOTE: These posts were removed from a different thread because it was getting off topic. Rob1985 is not the OP of this thread, I am. Yvonne


I'd really love to see the studies that say the decline in box turtle population is due in large part to people taking one here and there, and not because of overdevelopment. It seems on par with saying that climate change is caused by people having too many bonfires in their backyards. The holier-than-thou attitude of those on this forum who can afford to buy overpriced turtles from breeders (*shudder*) is a little disconcerting.

 

[Jay Bagley]

Took a quick screenshot, last paragraph.

 

[TechnoCheese]

I'd really love to see the studies that say the decline in box turtle population is due in large part to people taking one here and there, and not because of overdevelopment. It seems on par with saying that climate change is caused by people having too many bonfires in their backyards. The holier-than-thou attitude of those on this forum who can afford to buy overpriced turtles from breeders (*shudder*) is a little disconcerting.

Why are breeders a (*shudder*)? Does it not seem more ideal to get a captive bread animal in stead of stealing one from its natural habitat? Instead of potentially hurting an ecosystem? Instead of potentially harming the turtle that you captured?
What do you mean if they can “afford to buy an overpriced turtle”? If you find a good breeder, it’s not overpriced. I found box turtles for 100 dollars from a breeder once. Is that overpriced? That sounds cheep for an animal to me. When you buy “an overpriced animal from a breeder”, if it’s a good breeder, it’s not overpriced. You’re paying for a Healthy, well started animal.
If someone can not afford to pay even a hundred dollars for an animal, what makes you think they will be able to afford a proper set-up, lighting, vet care, etc? Buying an animal comes with the cost of keeping one.
It’s not a “holier-than-thou attitude”. It’s common sense.

 

[daniellenc]

I'd really love to see the studies that say the decline in box turtle population is due in large part to people taking one here and there, and not because of overdevelopment. It seems on par with saying that climate change is caused by people having too many bonfires in their backyards. The holier-than-thou attitude of those on this forum who can afford to buy overpriced turtles from breeders (*shudder*) is a little disconcerting.

i actually agree with over development contributing to the decline of box turtles 100%. However, you can't deny the glaring reality wild animals often do not do well in captivity. The change in habitat, temperatures, diet, sounds, and vibrations in a human home cause stress which causes the overproduction of parasites and death. It's not holier than thou to want to prevent unnecessary suffering of an animal. Look at WC importing and death rates for newly imported animals with experienced breeders and keepers. Any experienced keeper will share this reality- many will not make it. Many will not acclimate to their new environment, many will not adjust to the new foods being introduced, and many will not respond to vet care, worming, and antibiotics because the change is just too stressful.

Now take an inexperienced keeper with limited knowledge and sub optimal husbandry practices. Do you think the turtles chances of survival and thriving improve? The OP literally posted a thread help I have a box turtle what do I feed it. He housed it with his CB animal which now undoubtedly has contracted worms and other parasites. I'm not trying to be mean but a new keeper and a WC animal don't go well together. It takes far more experience to work with WC animals and your average genius who "rescues" a turtle crossing the road and thinks it's so cute doesn't have it. If it's holier than thou to expect people to responsibly purchase an "expensive" CB animal what do you call someone who can't afford vet care or proper husbandry for their WC animal? Like if you can't spend $100 on the animal and another few hundred on an enclosure and supplies what does that really say about the quality of that animals life?

 

[Rob1985]

I think what this study may have been referring to was unscrupulous, greedy people grabbing every wild turtle they can en masse for the purpose of resale, and I'm not arguing that that has decimated the turtle population. How else would they have collected the data? Surveyed households across the state ("Excuse me sir, did you take a box turtle from the wild in the last year?") I was arguing with the idea that people here and there taking one turtle had decimated their population. I think the OP in this thread was given or found a solitary box turtle.

As for the OP, yeah, he could use a little more research into turtle care. I wasn't arguing that he doesn't. I found out what a crapload of work they were after I got my first one, but instead of neglecting it, I just made a decision to work harder to keep it healthy. But instead of yelling at him to put it back, tell him they need a lot of work and he needs to make a decision if he's ready for that kind of commitment. I think Yvonne's response was on the right track.

As for breeders, Northeast Reptiles posted about "strange wounds" on his new turtle that he got from a breeder (I'm not attacking you, NE Reptiles, just using an example. I'm glad your turtle got a good home). It looks like a skin infection of some sort, probably from being kept in unsanitary conditions at the breeders. If it was instead, as some people suggested in that thread, from an overeager male, where was the breeder while the that female was being to mounted excessively? Furthermore, apparently this breeder didn't even give the turtle a once-over before packing it up for shipment. I'm sure there are some good breeders, but I'm also sure there are a lot of crappy ones. Just like puppy mills. Let's be honest, what breeders care about is money.

 

[Tom]

Let's be honest, what breeders care about is money.

That is not honest or correct. That is a sweeping generalization that lumps a few bad apples in with a very large batch of good apples. I'm a breeder. I lose money every year. I don't care. I do this because I love it. I breed because I love seeing people enjoy raising my babies the same way I enjoyed raising their parents.

Further I find it sad the the people you've run into and the experiences you've had in dealing with Chelonians has led you to the conclusions you've reached and shared here on this thread. My experiences and the majority of the people I've run into in this "business" has left me with a very different perspective than yours.

 

[mark1]

the odds of a hatchling turtle surviving to adulthood are infinitesimally small ....... the survival strategy for turtles is their lifespans .... it may take a wood or blanding's turtle surviving 15-18yrs to reach reproductive maturity . they can then produce offspring for the next 50,60-70yrs , that's how a population with such a poor survival rate sustains itself ....... to replace one adult taken out of a population could require hundreds of hatchlings , possibly more , maybe thousands in that turtles lifetime .........

there were studies on north american wood turtles , ended when the entire population being studied was gone from one year to the next , all the other life on the river was unaffected , it is obvious what happened to them ........ something like a guy named larry tregle , who 5-6 yrs ago pled guilty to selling $400,000 in mostly pennsylvania caught N.A. wood turtles , that was a plea deal , they did have bank records ...... can you imagine the real number ? how many turtles you think that is ?

 

[Jay Bagley]

I think what this study may have been referring to was unscrupulous, greedy people grabbing every wild turtle they can en masse for the purpose of resale, and I'm not arguing that that has decimated the turtle population. How else would they have collected the data? Surveyed households across the state ("Excuse me sir, did you take a box turtle from the wild in the last year?") I was arguing with the idea that people here and there taking one turtle had decimated their population. I think the OP in this thread was given or found a solitary box turtle.

As for the OP, yeah, he could use a little more research into turtle care. I wasn't arguing that he doesn't. I found out what a crapload of work they were after I got my first one, but instead of neglecting it, I just made a decision to work harder to keep it healthy. But instead of yelling at him to put it back, tell him they need a lot of work and he needs to make a decision if he's ready for that kind of commitment. I think Yvonne's response was on the right track.

As for breeders, Northeast Reptiles posted about "strange wounds" on his new turtle that he got from a breeder (I'm not attacking you, NE Reptiles, just using an example. I'm glad your turtle got a good home). It looks like a skin infection of some sort, probably from being kept in unsanitary conditions at the breeders. If it was instead, as some people suggested in that thread, from an overeager male, where was the breeder while the that female was being to mounted excessively? Furthermore, apparently this breeder didn't even give the turtle a once-over before packing it up for shipment. I'm sure there are some good breeders, but I'm also sure there are a lot of crappy ones. Just like puppy mills. Let's be honest, what breeders care about is money.

I agree with you there are some crappy breeders out there. They're usually the ones that you see their babies are being raised on rabbit pellets and giving out horrible misleading information being fed great big handfuls of iceberg lettuce. Most of the bad ones fit the bad breeder stereotype to the letter. I also agree with you that there are a lot of good ones. But as far as all they care about is money, I think only the bad ones that statement applies to. Seems like the vast majority of breeders here on this form tend to put educating the public, taking exceptional care of their babies, conservation of the species, I could go on and on. But in the end they care far more about the tortoises then they do the money. I put that screenshot article up there as a reference from one state just to show how many tortoises are being ripped from the wild. To show why some of the operators are possibly so enthusiastic about not pulling them from the wild. Just an example, but if a thousand people in one state share the same mentality that it's only one or two tortoises that I'm taking, that's a thousand tortoises taken out. It's not just one person taking one tortoise.

 

[TechnoCheese]

As for breeders, Northeast Reptiles posted about "strange wounds" on his new turtle that he got from a breeder (I'm not attacking you, NE Reptiles, just using an example. I'm glad your turtle got a good home). It looks like a skin infection of some sort, probably from being kept in unsanitary conditions at the breeders. If it was instead, as some people suggested in that thread, from an overeager male, where was the breeder while the that female was being to mounted excessively? Furthermore, apparently this breeder didn't even give the turtle a once-over before packing it up for shipment. I'm sure there are some good breeders, but I'm also sure there are a lot of crappy ones.

This could also be said about wild turtles. How do you know it doesn’t have parasites? Some disease that can affect the rest of the OP’s pets? It could be sick, it could be laying eggs, looking for a mate, and so on. There is definitely a bigger risk of these things when taking them from the wild, as opposed to using a GOOD breeder.

And as previous member(s) have pointed out, it doesn’t just effect the one turtle. It prevents many generations, and hundreds of turtles from being born. If everyone shared your mentality, they would be wiped out.

 

[vladimir]

there were studies on north american wood turtles , ended when the entire population being studied was gone from one year to the next , all the other life on the river was unaffected , it is obvious what happened to them ........ something like a guy named larry tregle , who 5-6 yrs ago pled guilty to selling $400,000 in mostly pennsylvania caught N.A. wood turtles , that was a plea deal , they did have bank records ...... can you imagine the real number ? how many turtles you think that is ?

I had not heard of this, but here's an article: http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/article_c077dcb5-4856-5408-9d53-014bf09205ce.html

Archived here if that link dies: https://web.archive.org/web/2018053...cle_c077dcb5-4856-5408-9d53-014bf09205ce.html

Edit: oops! Too slow!

 

[Toddrickfl1]

Overpriced breeders? Box turtles are like $60. If you can't afford that sorry but you should probably reevaluate whether owning a turtle is for you then.

 

[Rob1985]

I apologize for quickly painting turtle breeders with a broad brush. I did not mean to be "dishonest". I've never met a turtle breeder in person, so I should not have generalized.from the captive-bred turtles I've seen, or the other animal breeders I've met. .

All the sites I've seen selling box turtles are $100+. If that's misinformed, then I apologize for that. But the attitude if you can't afford the purchase price, you can't afford the item is ok for cars, but pretty snobby for pets. I'd much rather spend the money on taking care of the turtle than the turtle itself.

I just find this forum has some people that are extremely opinionated and make turtle ownership out to be an exclusive club. I've also found some people with high post counts (not in reference to this particular thread, although I have seen some of them comment on this topic) that have said some pure non-sense about turtle care. I actually had some non-chelonian lovers look at some of the threads, and they came away with the same opinion ("turtle snobs" was one quote). You push away new chelonian lovers with that kind of attitude. And then no one will give a crap about running one over on the road, instead of helping it across.

 

[wellington]

It should be plain and simple. Leave the wild in the wild, period. That's not the way to get a tortoise/turtle. Keeping them is not cheap. So, yes, I have the attitude that if you can't afford to buy one then you probably can't afford to care for one. I'm not going to apologize for that attitude either. It just might save lives of torts/turtles from living in a poorly condition. You don't have to be rich, you just have to be able to afford it. We have kids that do chores to save up their money to BUY the tortoise or turtle along with all the stuff it needs. If it's being a snob to want to educate people on not taking from the wild and why, then I'm a snob and proud of it! I will put animal health and well being over people's feelings every time.
Btw, the title of this thread is quite confusing. You want a friendly discussion but you then call people snobs and all breeders money hungry. Not quite the way to start out a friendly discussion.

 

[Toddrickfl1]

" But the attitude if you can't afford the purchase price, you can't afford the item is ok for cars, but pretty snobby for pets."

I'm trying to understand the logic in statement? If anything its the opposite way around. When you take on a pet you are assuming responsibility for that animal and it is fully dependant on you for survival. If your car breaks and you can't afford to fix it you just get a ride. If you can't afford to give your animal the proper care that animal may suffer greatly so I'd have to disagree. The people in here just care greatly about these animals, thats all.

-

 

[Redfool]

The holier-than-thou attitude of those on this forum who can afford to buy overpriced turtles from breeders (*shudder*) is a little disconcerting.

From all I’ve read on this is not a forum for the mill breeder. If you rescue a “free” shelter dog you send 75 to 125 dollars to spay/neuter, 25 dollars for pain meds and another 35 for its vet check. Free huh. I for one as a RF breeder watch for nesting, dig eggs, set up and place in incubators and maintain eggs (yes they do need maintaining) for over 120 days (4 months). When they hatch each one is marked and documented for growth, visually eating, drinking along with daily soaks. This usually takes another month. I would never let any questionable tort go as I’m sure all in this forum wouldn’t either. It’s as easy as that. Holier-than-thou moley.

 

[ascott]

I think what this study may have been referring to was unscrupulous, greedy people grabbing every wild turtle they can en masse for the purpose of resale, and I'm not arguing that that has decimated the turtle population. How else would they have collected the data? Surveyed households across the state ("Excuse me sir, did you take a box turtle from the wild in the last year?") I was arguing with the idea that people here and there taking one turtle had decimated their population. I think the OP in this thread was given or found a solitary box turtle.

As for the OP, yeah, he could use a little more research into turtle care. I wasn't arguing that he doesn't. I found out what a crapload of work they were after I got my first one, but instead of neglecting it, I just made a decision to work harder to keep it healthy. But instead of yelling at him to put it back, tell him they need a lot of work and he needs to make a decision if he's ready for that kind of commitment. I think Yvonne's response was on the right track.

As for breeders, Northeast Reptiles posted about "strange wounds" on his new turtle that he got from a breeder (I'm not attacking you, NE Reptiles, just using an example. I'm glad your turtle got a good home). It looks like a skin infection of some sort, probably from being kept in unsanitary conditions at the breeders. If it was instead, as some people suggested in that thread, from an overeager male, where was the breeder while the that female was being to mounted excessively? Furthermore, apparently this breeder didn't even give the turtle a once-over before packing it up for shipment. I'm sure there are some good breeders, but I'm also sure there are a lot of crappy ones. Just like puppy mills. Let's be honest, what breeders care about is money.

"people taking them here and there"....well, lets use this as comparison...what if all of the people in the world just threw down a single fast food napkin...along it is only a napkin....all together, there is going to be a hella lot of napkins littering around...what a mess...so collectively, yes, it does add up....

 

[Rob1985]

Like beating one's head against a wall. But you all must know best.

I extend an olive branch by apologizing for making sweeping generalizations about breeders, and you all continue to jump on my back. So don't worry, if my turtles have a problem that I don't know about (because I can admit when I don't know about something or don't have the absolute truth, unlike some people on this forum who have read a paperback book on turtle care and think they're gurus), I'll just do my best but let the chips fall where they may. Your exclusive club won't be disturbed anymore and you can sit in your pools of self-adulation and moral condemnation. Don't worry, I will watch silently though as you shoot your mouths off to newcomers and each other, and have a chuckle (so will my turtles).

My previous dog was free off of craigslist (ad was up for almost a year and no one wanted a 9 year old GSD mix: the owners were about to euthanize him) and my current dog was $100 from the SPCA, which included spaying, all basic vaccinations, and microchipping, as she had languished in various shelters for over a year, because again, no one wanted an older mixed dog. So I don't need a lecture on the costs of dogs vs turtles, or one in general on proper animal care. You can get a perfectly good pet without spending a lot of money, unless you're getting it for the wrong reasons.

Turtles are all "wild" animals, whether you paid money to a breeder or scooped them up. I've seen plenty of captive-born turtles struggling to get out of their cages. You can pretend they're not wild because you paid for them, if that helps you sleep at night (Budweiser works fine for me though).
Also, maybe someone could work for a private detective agency, because you're so adept at extrapolating data from and analyzing photos. Incidentally that photo I posted was from a 10 year-old flip phone, because I spend a good chunk of money on my turtles' upkeep and not fancy phones. The only time you'll see me in the fresh produce aisle of a real supermarket is for my turts. But I guess I and others like me don't deserve to have them cause we can't or simply don't want to pay breeder fees, reasonable or not. BTW, my turts started eating again the day after they awoke from brumation. Guess I was very negligent in letting them brumate in straw...
Hmmmmmmm, Chicago. I don't think the air pollutants in the urban/suburban environment are appropriate for chelonian lungs, bred or otherwise. To heck with your people feelings, you should move or re-home your turtles. Get the point yet? (Probably not. I'd search through your posts so I can pick apart your turtle enclosure in more detail, but no one appointed me God or Captain Planet. Apparently that's your department)
And I did not name this thread, it got moved from another thread by a moderator because I ignited a firestorm by challenging the group-think that I observed going on there. After watching this forum for months (had an account for 8 months and a whopping 9 posts. Cheesy saying, but you've got two eyes, two ears, and one mouth...), I got tired of reading opinion masquerading as fact and moral imperative, so I stopped restraining my keyboard and responded in a less-than-optimal thread for it.

But regardless, I'll leave you all alone, to your internet and your lousy attitudes.

Adios, I'll make sure the door doesn't hit me in the vent on the way out.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

@Rob1985
I'm confused. I just stumbled upon this thread.
Why would you post such a thread and then take offense to the answers?
If you can read between the lines, they mostly say that here at the TFO, we advocate for NOT contributing to the decline of these animals in the wild and to keep only such animals that were born as pets. This is for several reasons including cross contamination from diseases that could wipe out entire wild populations.
A lot of us have had some type of "breeder" situation and we only pass on/sell to individuals that can and will keep our babies correctly. I can say for myself that I have NEVER made money off of any of that. It's usually a loss.
So, while you are correct that a "pet" turtle/tortoise is still a wild animal, you're missing the point. We try very hard to not affect the wild populations of these animals. And that is a HUGE difference.

 

[Jay Bagley]

Like beating one's head against a wall. But you all must know best.

I extend an olive branch by apologizing for making sweeping generalizations about breeders, and you all continue to jump on my back. So don't worry, if my turtles have a problem that I don't know about (because I can admit when I don't know about something or don't have the absolute truth, unlike some people on this forum who have read a paperback book on turtle care and think they're gurus), I'll just do my best but let the chips fall where they may. Your exclusive club won't be disturbed anymore and you can sit in your pools of self-adulation and moral condemnation. Don't worry, I will watch silently though as you shoot your mouths off to newcomers and each other, and have a chuckle (so will my turtles).

My previous dog was free off of craigslist (ad was up for almost a year and no one wanted a 9 year old GSD mix: the owners were about to euthanize him) and my current dog was $100 from the SPCA, which included spaying, all basic vaccinations, and microchipping, as she had languished in various shelters for over a year, because again, no one wanted an older mixed dog. So I don't need a lecture on the costs of dogs vs turtles, or one in general on proper animal care. You can get a perfectly good pet without spending a lot of money, unless you're getting it for the wrong reasons.

Turtles are all "wild" animals, whether you paid money to a breeder or scooped them up. I've seen plenty of captive-born turtles struggling to get out of their cages. You can pretend they're not wild because you paid for them, if that helps you sleep at night (Budweiser works fine for me though).
Also, maybe someone could work for a private detective agency, because you're so adept at extrapolating data from and analyzing photos. Incidentally that photo I posted was from a 10 year-old flip phone, because I spend a good chunk of money on my turtles' upkeep and not fancy phones. The only time you'll see me in the fresh produce aisle of a real supermarket is for my turts. But I guess I and others like me don't deserve to have them cause we can't or simply don't want to pay breeder fees, reasonable or not. BTW, my turts started eating again the day after they awoke from brumation. Guess I was very negligent in letting them brumate in straw...
Hmmmmmmm, Chicago. I don't think the air pollutants in the urban/suburban environment are appropriate for chelonian lungs, bred or otherwise. To heck with your people feelings, you should move or re-home your turtles. Get the point yet? (Probably not. I'd search through your posts so I can pick apart your turtle enclosure in more detail, but no one appointed me God or Captain Planet. Apparently that's your department)
And I did not name this thread, it got moved from another thread by a moderator because I ignited a firestorm by challenging the group-think that I observed going on there. After watching this forum for months (had an account for 8 months and a whopping 9 posts. Cheesy saying, but you've got two eyes, two ears, and one mouth...), I got tired of reading opinion masquerading as fact and moral imperative, so I stopped restraining my keyboard and responded in a less-than-optimal thread for it.

But regardless, I'll leave you all alone, to your internet and your lousy attitudes.

Adios, I'll make sure the door doesn't hit me in the vent on the way out.

[emoji850]

 

[Toddrickfl1]

OP states that $100 for a box turtle is an overpriced breeder fee

Ops current dog was adopted for $100
And OP was ok with that?

That's like rain, on your wedding day
A little bit ironic
Don't ya think?