You made this statment "The South Africans get larger than the babcocks. Is this arguable? How could anyone not think this?"
And my answer is yes it is arguable and lots, if not all of those with knowledge on the topic will agree that the largest African Leopard tortoise is a babcocki. Ive discussed this topic with many in the Leopard community and your the only one that disputes this and your the only one that views them as some sort of Mytholigical Creature. Also your statement implies that only p.pardalis range South Africa and that is also not true. There are babcocki in South Africa as well.
Furthermore, I woud say that your description of what defines a p.pardalis is also not completely accurate and its more a description of certain clades of Leopards ranging in South Africa wich can be classified as p.pardalis, but whos traits are more localized and are not an accurate description of the sub-species as a whole. Not to say that this particular clade doesnt warrant its own sub.sp., its just that in out discussion its easier to go with the existing Genbank data as I tend to think that the hobby is largely driven by such.
So whats my point? My point is that gpp come in all shapes and sizes and there are no clear cut rules that define the sub.sp. Although, there can be an argument as to what defines certain clades such as 1 dot 2 dot, size, etc. That the use of generalizations is not what the members of TFO come here to read and if your going to make generalizations be prepared for others to shoot them down. The fact is g.p.b is the largest Sub-Saharan Leopard tortoise in Africa and that includes the South of Africa as well.
Well put Neal, I agree 100% and the generalization that gpp are more outgoing and personable just isnt true.
Let me clarify my above statement so there is no confusion because after reading it I dont want it to be misundrstood. I stated that "The fact is g.p.b is the largest Sub-Saharan Leopard tortoise in Africa and that includes the South of Africa as well". The fact is true, its just that there seems to be some confusion on what classifies both sub.sp. I can see where Tom might make the generalization that gpp are the larger of the sub.sp. I could make the same argument for babcocki if I believed that the Ethiopian clade of g.p.b were the only g.p.b and that isnt true. Gpb come in all different sizes, shapes and colors as it stands. The same goes for gpp and I think the confusion is that some believe that the only gpp are the ones that are similar to the ones found in the hobby and that isnt the case. The fact is, like babcocki, pardalis also differ in size, shape and locality its just that some would have us believe that the only 100% true gpp meet the criteria set forth by the hobby (hatchlings have 2 dots on the vertebrals, they reach over 50lbs, have a flatter carapace, are more cold tollerant and are more outgoing) all of which isnt true.
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Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-G-P-B-or-G-P-P?page=2#ixzz1DpGKImKp
And my answer is yes it is arguable and lots, if not all of those with knowledge on the topic will agree that the largest African Leopard tortoise is a babcocki. Ive discussed this topic with many in the Leopard community and your the only one that disputes this and your the only one that views them as some sort of Mytholigical Creature. Also your statement implies that only p.pardalis range South Africa and that is also not true. There are babcocki in South Africa as well.
Furthermore, I woud say that your description of what defines a p.pardalis is also not completely accurate and its more a description of certain clades of Leopards ranging in South Africa wich can be classified as p.pardalis, but whos traits are more localized and are not an accurate description of the sub-species as a whole. Not to say that this particular clade doesnt warrant its own sub.sp., its just that in out discussion its easier to go with the existing Genbank data as I tend to think that the hobby is largely driven by such.
So whats my point? My point is that gpp come in all shapes and sizes and there are no clear cut rules that define the sub.sp. Although, there can be an argument as to what defines certain clades such as 1 dot 2 dot, size, etc. That the use of generalizations is not what the members of TFO come here to read and if your going to make generalizations be prepared for others to shoot them down. The fact is g.p.b is the largest Sub-Saharan Leopard tortoise in Africa and that includes the South of Africa as well.
Well put Neal, I agree 100% and the generalization that gpp are more outgoing and personable just isnt true.
Neal said:
Let me clarify my above statement so there is no confusion because after reading it I dont want it to be misundrstood. I stated that "The fact is g.p.b is the largest Sub-Saharan Leopard tortoise in Africa and that includes the South of Africa as well". The fact is true, its just that there seems to be some confusion on what classifies both sub.sp. I can see where Tom might make the generalization that gpp are the larger of the sub.sp. I could make the same argument for babcocki if I believed that the Ethiopian clade of g.p.b were the only g.p.b and that isnt true. Gpb come in all different sizes, shapes and colors as it stands. The same goes for gpp and I think the confusion is that some believe that the only gpp are the ones that are similar to the ones found in the hobby and that isnt the case. The fact is, like babcocki, pardalis also differ in size, shape and locality its just that some would have us believe that the only 100% true gpp meet the criteria set forth by the hobby (hatchlings have 2 dots on the vertebrals, they reach over 50lbs, have a flatter carapace, are more cold tollerant and are more outgoing) all of which isnt true.
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Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-G-P-B-or-G-P-P?page=2#ixzz1DpGKImKp
