Great Experience/ Sad Reminder

[Jacqui]

I know everyone who has commented on this thread has the best intentions and only cares about the best interest of the animals, but it surprises me to see how fast we are to assume the worst about other people. It is possible that I error in the other direction sometimes, but I have talked to people from PHS many times over the years. After seeing the facility in person, I definitely consider this a good organization, even if I don't agree with how they do everything.

I hope this isn't viewed as argumentative. It is certainly not intended to be. I just think that PHS is getting some unfair accusations made about them, or at least exaggerations. I guess it is a matter of opinion, but that is mine.

I jumped on it because I just had come from a thread where we we jumping on a Pet store for much this same thing.

It's not just the breeding that worries me, it's the numbers in a small area. That seriously worries me. ANY rescue has to know enough to say "NO!" when they reach their maximum number per space allotted to those animals.
The over crowding is actually my biggest concern.

 

[yagyujubei]

If what I have read here is accurate, then they are one of the larger sulcata producers in the US. It's like job security, they're breeding the very animals that will be in their "shelter" in a few years. It's like the humane society breeding puppies and kittens. I don't get it.

 

[Jacqui]

It really is just a matter of opinion. I don't think PHS is an evil organization run by people with evil intentions, in fact I have volunteered there and my scout group is planning on taking a trip out there sometime this month...there is no abuse going on there, and as you mentioned, the care they give to the animals is at least adequate, if not above, which I'm sure is more than the animals were getting before they were there.

I don't think they are "evil" either. Personally I think they have the best intentions, but like we see often, they got carried away. They need to do whatever it takes, to move out some of those big sulcata or to increase the area they have. I can't help but feel with all those sulcata in those small enclosure space per number of animals, that there is a lot of stress going on. We get on pet stores for doing this, when those animals should be sold quicker then these animals will be moving out, indeed it sounds like the females will never be allowed to find new permanent homes with freedom of movement.

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If what I have read here is accurate, then they are one of the larger sulcata producers in the US. It's like job security, they're breeding the very animals that will be in their "shelter" in a few years. It's like the humane society breeding puppies and kittens. I don't get it.

Me either.

 

[dmarcus]

If they are worried about the females being intentionally bred, couldnt they restrict who they adopt (sell) out to like Arizona does with the desert tortoise? I just don't buy that excuse.

 

[JeffG]

Just to be clear, I agree completely with what pretty much everyone has said about them selling baby sulcatas, and keeping too many in the space they have available. I think both those things need to be changed. The current situation is not acceptable. I just don't know nearly enough to claim it is due to a lack of concern, lack of understanding, or circumstances that they are not totally responsible for.

They do have at least 3-4 separate enclosures for sulcatas. I would like to know if they are at least moving animals that don't get along to different enclosures.

I can actually understand why they don't sell the tortoises cheap. That would create a magnet for every money grubbing loser with dreams of making a fortune breeding sulcatas. I can also see that they accomplish at least two good things by not selling the females. First, that prevents someone from being able to buy a breeding age animal that can start producing babies right away. This alone will deter some of the "only in it for the money" buyers. Of course they greatly lessen this benefit if they allow the same female to breed at their facility and sell the babies, but still all-in-all I think less babies are being produced this way. Second, by selling only males they are moving out more animals that are more likely to have trouble living in this large group situation. If you are going to have 50 sulcatas living together in a pen, it would be much better if 45 of them were female rather than 45 of them being male.

All of you who have condemned the current sulcata setup are correct. It is not good. That was one of the original points of my post. I do think that it is worth pointing out how great most of the other animals are kept there though. I am not saying that excuses the sulcata situation at all, I just think it demonstrates that this organization seems to put great effort into creating wonderful environments for the animals in their care. They are just not there yet with the sulcatas. I have not read the old posts yet, but I will.