Great Experience/ Sad Reminder

[JeffG]

I had a really great opportunity to visit the Phoenix Herpetalogical Society today. This is a really great group that takes in unwanted or abused reptiles in the Phoenix area. They have a facility where they keep thousands of animals. I think the figure is 1400 animals a year that they take in. They also travel around to reptile expos and other events with many of the animals to educate people about them and encourage responsible pet keeping.

They really have an amazing compound with some of the best outdoor enclosures I have ever seen in my life. Every one was meticulously maintained and perfectly clean. I have more respect for these guys than I can express. Even so, it was horrifying to see how many sulcatas they had. They had at least five or six pens full of them, mostly 8-9 years old to adults. These pens were HUGE, and very well designed. Unfortunately, even though they were awesome enclosures, they were no where near big enough for the 30-50 torts in each one. it was so sad to see the animals piled in on top of each other. There were numerous fights during the time I was there.

It also made me sick to see the horrible condition of some of the carapaces of these tortoises. I want to be VERY clear, this is NOT the fault of PHS. They have taken these animals in, in these conditions. They are providing them with extremely good living conditions. They just don't have as much room as they could use for so many no longer wanted animals.

This was a sobering reminder to me about how big a problem it is in the reptile trade that so many sulcatas and other animals that require unique owners are sold to anyone who has $50 and a momentary desire to take home a cute little tortoise hatchling.

Another really sad thing I learned from a volunteer there was that about 1000 sulcata hatchlings are produce at PHS each year even though they make no attempt to breed them. These hatchlings are sold to reptile brokers, and in turn many of them are sold to other people unprepared to provide for their needs long term. As a result, many will end up right back at PHS.

Sorry, I couldn't bring myself to take pictures.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Seeing stuff like that is so upsetting, I know. I won't go to places like that anymore...thanks for no pictures...

 

[Jacqui]

Sounds like you had a really neat experience. Is this the same place, that one of the members (Neal maybe) showed us a couple of pictures of?

Now the following is in no way really trying to criticize this organization for they are doing a very worthy thing, but the devil's advocate in me found a couple of things to say...

Why are they taking in so many more sulcata then they can house satisfactory? Is that fair to the animals or is it just taking them from one bad situation into another?

Are they separating these guys by sex to help cut down the breeding? Destroying nests? I am sorry, but I think it is wrong for them to allow those hatchlings to be sold like they are and adding to their own problem and the sulcata problem.

Since I know nothing of this place, are their requirements for adoption hard to meet? Wondering why they are ending up with such vast numbers of unmoveable animals.

Would really like to know more about their enclosures, since you like them so much.

 

[JeffG]

Sounds like you had a really neat experience. Is this the same place, that one of the members (Neal maybe) showed us a couple of pictures of?

Now the following is in no way really trying to criticize this organization for they are doing a very worthy thing, but the devil's advocate in me found a couple of things to say...

Why are they taking in so many more sulcata then they can house satisfactory? Is that fair to the animals or is it just taking them from one bad situation into another?

Are they separating these guys by sex to help cut down the breeding? Destroying nests? I am sorry, but I think it is wrong for them to allow those hatchlings to be sold like they are and adding to their own problem and the sulcata problem.

Since I know nothing of this place, are their requirements for adoption hard to meet? Wondering why they are ending up with such vast numbers of unmoveable animals.

Would really like to know more about their enclosures, since you like them so much.

Trust me, I have every question you do. I don't question these guy's motives for one second, but I do feel that they might be able to do some things better. While the crowded sulcata enclosures are not ideal, I have no doubt that they are much better than the situations most of these animals came from. They are very large, probably 60' x 60' on average, with elaborate underground hides, lots of bushes, and site barriers. There was really nothing I would change about the pens, there were just too many torts in each one.

I wish I had a good solution to the problem. I honestly don't know what I would tell them to do differently other than stop selling more sulcata babies. Even with that situation, what are they supposed to do? They probably have at least 200-300 large sulcatas there. How could they stop the breeding? If they completely separated males and females, my guess is that many males would die. My first thought was to collect all the eggs and dispose of them, but that idea kind of stinks too. I just wish that sulcatas weren't so dang prolific.

 

[dmmj]

If PHS takes in rescue sulcatas, why on earth would they produce 1000 of them every year and then turn around and sell them to brokers who may just be selling them to the first person with the money, while I applaud their efforts to take in unwanted or neglected animals but I think this would be like a alcohol and drug rehab center operating a bar in their facility, and sell drugs on the corner street. In this case they should simply destroy the nests or turn them into food for the other animals they keep there.

Don't mean to disrespect jeffg or the PHS but this sounds crazy to me.

 

[Neal]

Yes, this is the same facility I showed a picture of. We've had quite a few threads about this particular rescue. We've even had a couple of members offer to take some sulcatas off their hands...but they only sell the males for $4 a pound I believe is what it was. Despite the large numbers, I would say their housing and care for the sulcatas is adequate (not great, but it will do type of thing). So I think it's great they can give so many a good home...but, the hoarding females and selling hatchlings to reptile brokers is a little odd for a rescue.

 

[Yvonne G]

See, that's what I thought too. Its not hard to see a female digging a nest...it takes a very long time. They could then take a shovel and chop up the eggs while she is covering the nest. Or even better yet, have different pens for the different sexes.

 

[Jacqui]

Neal and Jeff, am I reading right, they only "find homes" or some would call it "selling" the MALES?

I am sorry but from what I am reading, I do not term this place a rescue.

 

[Laura]

disturbing ..... Vicious circle? Job security?
I know a local Horse rescue.. that intentionally breeds the nicer ones and sells the babies.. they scream for donations and money..
Places need to learn to say NO. Or more rescues are needed. Expand and seperate or dont take any more in.. Find good homes for what you got.. Selling? no.. adoption fee.. ok.. but $4 a pound? that is odd as well. I wonder how many are injured or killed by the fighting you mention. Is that right to allow? Do they treat the injured or let 'nature take its course" ?

I know dog breeders. SHow dogs.. that also rescue thier breed. But that is different.....

 

[dmarcus]

I wonder what percentage of the ones they sell end up back at there facility to be breed and resold? Very vicious circle...

 

[Neal]

Neal and Jeff, am I reading right, they only "find homes" or some would call it "selling" the MALES?

Yes, they will only re-home the males. There is a thread somewhere on here about someone who went to the PHS and was walking around with one of the workers. The worker told them that they don't sell the females because they were the "money makers".

 

[dmmj]

Neal and Jeff, am I reading right, they only "find homes" or some would call it "selling" the MALES?

Yes, they will only re-home the males. There is a thread somewhere on here about someone who went to the PHS and was walking around with one of the workers. The worker told them that they don't sell the females because they were the "money makers".

Sorry if that is true then that is just wrong.
I remember the thread about their re homing fees being based by the pound, but I forgot which one it was.

 

[The Adjustor]

They should make an effort to locate nests so they can remove and freeze as many eggs as they can. Or try to keep males and females seperate. Do sulcata males get along with each other if there are no females present?

 

[dmmj]

They should make an effort to locate nests so they can remove and freeze as many eggs as they can. Or try to keep males and females seperate. Do sulcata males get along with each other if there are no females present?

Usually no, if you have enough room they will tend to leave each other alone, but they are territorial and often fight each other even with no females around.

 

[Jacqui]

So we have what if they were dogs, would be called a puppy mill calling itself a rescue.

 

[JeffG]

I think there is some misinformation getting out now. You have to remember, almost all of the people working at this place are volunteers. I believe most of them have good intentions, but they are all individuals and frankly, sometimes individuals say stupid things. It could be a failed attempt at humor, or simply ignorance about what is truly going on.

PHS is NOT breeding sulcatas for profit. I agree it is wrong for them to be adding to the supply of sulcatas for sale, but that doesn't mean they have evil intent. I think I will attempt to contact them and get more of an explanation about why they do this before I speak for them, but I am confident that they are not intentionally putting these animals in bad situations. The reason they don't sell females is because they don't want them being intentionally bred. The number of animals they have could easily produce MANY more babies each year than they do if they were intentionally trying to breed them.

As I mentioned before, they have thousands of animals at PHS. Probably hundreds of species. The sulcatas and RES were the ONLY animals that I had any issue with, and the problem was simply too many animals. The reason they have so many RES is because they regularly go to the Phoenix zoo to collect the females out of the moat around the zoo. They do this for population control. My understanding is that they try their best to not have any male RES that could mate with the females. Everything else had more than adequate housing and space. I was very impressed with the place. There is no way that place can make a profit based on what I saw. They would have to have EVERYTHING donated in order for that to happen. The cost of maintaining those animals is astronomical.

I know everyone who has commented on this thread has the best intentions and only cares about the best interest of the animals, but it surprises me to see how fast we are to assume the worst about other people. It is possible that I error in the other direction sometimes, but I have talked to people from PHS many times over the years. After seeing the facility in person, I definitely consider this a good organization, even if I don't agree with how they do everything.

I hope this isn't viewed as argumentative. It is certainly not intended to be. I just think that PHS is getting some unfair accusations made about them, or at least exaggerations. I guess it is a matter of opinion, but that is mine.

 

[chairman]

A couple old threads about this particular rescue:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-article-on-100lb-Sulcata-found-in-AZ-desert#axzz1b8pO3zYS

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Why-Do-Rescues-Do-This#axzz1b8pO3zYS

I don't think anyone has been fast to make assumptions about this particular organization... their opinions are at least several years old. As for me, I just pulled this off of the rescue's website: http://www.phoenixherp.com/

"Species: Baby African Sulcatta Tortoises
Sex: Too young to determine sex
Size: Various. Hatchlings available for adoption.
Adoption Fee: Dependent on size of animal. Call for pricing and availability."

Pricing and availability?! Yeah, sounds like a rescue to me.

 

[Neal]

It really is just a matter of opinion. I don't think PHS is an evil organization run by people with evil intentions, in fact I have volunteered there and my scout group is planning on taking a trip out there sometime this month...there is no abuse going on there, and as you mentioned, the care they give to the animals is at least adequate, if not above, which I'm sure is more than the animals were getting before they were there.

I for one, just don't agree with what they are doing with the sulcatas they have at their facility. And it's not a perception I have from looking at a couple of pictures and reading threads. I have actually been there and have had conversations with Dan and Russ of PHS, Dr. Driggers (Their on-site vet), and the personal experiences of others here on the forum. I don't see any misinformation on this thread or too many comments that have been exaggerated. The "money makers" comment was made by Russ, I believe, I'll try and find that thread. Whether or not he said that in jest or was serious or even actually said that, I wasn't there, but given the behavior of PHS related to their sulcatas, a comment like that doesn't surprise me. Again, that doesn't make them evil people in my eyes, I don't really "know" the people who run the facility and I can't pretend I know what their intentions are. But having been there and spoken with the people I have, the only negative thing I can say is that the way they handle their sulcatas (selling them to brokers and selling them at $4/lb for a male) is not something I think a not-for-profit rescue should be doing. Again, it's just a matter of opinion.

 

[Tom]

Out of all of this, what I wish for everyone to realize is that when someone makes the comment about "rescues overrun with unwanted sulcatas", there are usually some pretty serious mitigating factors. Clearly that is the case here.

 

[Neal]

Here is the thread I referenced in Post 11. I was a little off in the "money makers" comment, but what the OP actually wrote isn't anything better, if Russ did in fact say it.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Well-Known-Tortoise-Rescue?highlight=society#axzz1b96woNhr