Green and yellow mucous- please help with experiences???

[Mantissa3]

Is he at least eating and active? Just expelling the goo is all?

Thanks for all of this great information, Kelly- so very much appreciated, since I've seen pictures of how your hatchlings and the rest of your herd looks- you are good at redfoots and I totally trust your advice and judgment (not to say I will blindly follow any advice about Gib, just saying I know you have been there and I'll take in what you say and work with all of it.)

He's not eating- hasn't eaten in 4 days, and is nosing at food for the first time this morning but not opening his mouth to lick it or taste it. I'll keep giving him naps and trying to feed him all his favorites, with fresh mango at the top of the list this time of year.

When he wouldn't pass the obstruction, I gave him a couple of warm baths with a couple of teaspoons of food grade mineral oil in the water. He was drinking in his soaks for the past 3 days. He drank deeply in those two soaks too, and then expelled (snorted out) water from his mouth and nose.

Now I'm worried that the mineral oil coated his nasal passages and he can't smell. He's always nosed around on his food prior to taking a bite - so I know he is "smell first" then taste...

Anybody reading this- will the mineral oil coating prevent Gib from sensing what is good to eat via his sense of smell? Will the oil coating wear off soon if he does have it in his nasal passages?

Thanks Kelly, and All,
Karen

 

[Mantissa3]

When a tortoise spends a lot of time wiping at his face with his front legs, it might be a couple different things - something stuck in his throat, his nose is plugged up or there's something in his eyes, or the eyes are sore from the light.

Scrape up that mucous and put it into a little plastic container and seal it (a sandwich baggie would be ok) and take it with you to the vet. The vets don't usually check for flagellates when checking for parasites, so ask him to be sure to check for flagellates.

Whatever you do, if he wants to give the animal an injection containing vitamin A, ask him to not give that one. It's much easier on the tortoise to get the vitamin A into him through his soaking water or food and the injection might end up being problematic.

Hi Yvonne:

Thanks so much for your response, above. I took your advice and am getting the fecal done. I told her no Vitamin A, but she did give him some fluids/electrolytes under his skin in his back thigh. That seemed to really help, as this morning he was hydrated, more alert than he's been in 3 days, and he passed the "hard thing" that was blocking him. Gibby also just drank a lot of water without it "flooding" back out his nose and mouth, as he's been doing the past few days, so I'm cautiously optimistic that at least some of his blockage has been dislodged and discharged this morning.

Do you advocate for food grade mineral oil for blockages? If so, how do you administer and how much? I still haven't ever gotten even one of my baby torties' mouths to open upon (my) demand. I put some of the good mineral oil in Gib's warm soak yesterday, and he was drinking deeply in his many soaks since he's been ill, but it always "flooded" back out his mouth and nose. Now i"m worried his nasasl passages are coated with oil and he can't smell or distinguish good fresh food from other objects- do you have any insight on any of this?

Thank you,
Karen

 

[Mantissa3]

Knowing his digestive track and intestines are irritated and/or sore, what should I feed him until he can tolerate regular foods again please?

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't advocate mineral oil at all unless included on food. Because the tortoise can't 'feel' the mineral oil in his mouth, etc. it is quite possible for him to inhale it into his lungs. The only way to administer it would be on food or through an eyedropper in his cloaca.

 

[Mantissa3]

I don't advocate mineral oil at all unless included on food. Because the tortoise can't 'feel' the mineral oil in his mouth, etc. it is quite possible for him to inhale it into his lungs. The only way to administer it would be on food or through an eyedropper in his cloaca.

Thank you Yvonne!

 

[Mantissa3]

Quick update on what's ailing my little one... at least part of the progression of the problem. There is no known, clear path to healing yet, since I've only been given a mild antibiotic and Panacure for parasites to give him by mouth only, and I can't get his mouth open to administer the drugs...

We got an x-ray. There is a hard object showing in the x-ray and I"ve circled it on the uploaded image, then he passed the object, and now a bit more (thicker) mucous is coming out of his vent occasionally. I'm soaking him many times per day- until he lets me know he won't stay in any more. I'm trying to put the antibiotic/anti-inflammatory medication in his beak one drop at a time. I have another consultation with a herp vet tomorrow, and the fecal panel results is supposed to be back tomorrow too.

Just sharing updates, in case this is ever a useful case for anybody else with beloved red foots,
Karen

 

[stojanovski92113]

I hope your little one pulls through this! How's he doing today?

 

[Mantissa3]

I hope your little one pulls through this! How's he doing today?

So kind of you- you must know how stressful this is for me and my entire household to write such a nice note to me.

He slept really hard last night- first time in a few days. He's still in his hide this morning at 2am then at 5am, and now at 7am, so I have hope that he's getting relief from internal pain after having passed the object out. The past few days he's been up fussing around his habitat with eyes wide open every time I've checked on him throughout the night- 2, 5, 7, etc.

I'm worried he's got an infection internally, I can't get his little mouth open to administer the mild antibiotic/anti-inflammatory oral drug, and he hasn't eaten in a week.

I've got a consult on the phone today with a tortoise vet practice in a neighboring state, hoping they can give me specific tips and tricks for being a rf nurse. My local vet said Monday of next week is the break-over point for Gib if he's not acting more energetic and eating by then- she's going to get aggressive then, do IV fluids (or under the skin for little Gibby) and do a blood panel, potential injected antibiotics, etc. She said stomach and intestine walls that slough off damage take 2-3 days to heal so that we stop seeing the mucous discharge, but beyond a few days, if he's still lethargic, we are going to have to get more aggressive with treatment.

I like the wait and let his body heal approach, but it also makes me nervous that I'm missing something that could progress by Monday, and miss my window to catch it early. Problem is, we don't know what "it" might be at this stage.

Would love to hear any comments from others who have been through the "passing a hard object, with associated after effects" ordeal. Just hearing that others have been through this, and the outcomes, gives me data to work with even if not specific to Gib's situation.

Your good wishes for Gib are very much appreciated, thank you!
Karen

 

[stojanovski92113]

So kind of you- you must know how stressful this is for me and my entire household to write such a nice note to me.

He slept really hard last night- first time in a few days. He's still in his hide this morning at 2am then at 5am, and now at 7am, so I have hope that he's getting relief from internal pain after having passed the object out. The past few days he's been up fussing around his habitat with eyes wide open every time I've checked on him throughout the night- 2, 5, 7, etc.

I'm worried he's got an infection internally, I can't get his little mouth open to administer the mild antibiotic/anti-inflammatory oral drug, and he hasn't eaten in a week.

I've got a consult on the phone today with a tortoise vet practice in a neighboring state, hoping they can give me specific tips and tricks for being a rf nurse. My local vet said Monday of next week is the break-over point for Gib if he's not acting more energetic and eating by then- she's going to get aggressive then, do IV fluids (or under the skin for little Gibby) and do a blood panel, potential injected antibiotics, etc. She said stomach and intestine walls that slough off damage take 2-3 days to heal so that we stop seeing the mucous discharge, but beyond a few days, if he's still lethargic, we are going to have to get more aggressive with treatment.

I like the wait and let his body heal approach, but it also makes me nervous that I'm missing something that could progress by Monday, and miss my window to catch it early. Problem is, we don't know what "it" might be at this stage.

Would love to hear any comments from others who have been through the "passing a hard object, with associated after effects" ordeal. Just hearing that others have been through this, and the outcomes, gives me data to work with even if not specific to Gib's situation.

Your good wishes for Gib are very much appreciated, thank you!
Karen

WOW poor tort I will be thinking of Gib and please keep us updated!

 

[Mantissa3]

WOW poor tort I will be thinking of Gib and please keep us updated!

I will and thanks so much for ringing in.

His little body is going to do what torties naturally do to heal, hopefully without any setbacks or harm from those who administer modern medical tactics.

The support that I get on this website with like-minded, and experienced tort companions means the world to me.

I've been a bird keeper for a couple of decades, so I'm a nervous wreck with the "wait and slow down" approach to tortoise medicine.

With birds - you blink and you miss the window for treatment because they metabolise so very quickly- medications, water, poisons, food... A couple of hours in a warm environment and a sick bird can sink or swim, make it or pass away. Everything is fast and on the fly using judgment, experience, best practices for avian nursing...

With Gibby, we have to wait a few days until a symptom fully develops, so that we can start to begin to talk about what diagnostic methods might work, good grief. My "nursing clock" is ticking, with alarms and red flags going off because I'm used to functioning on "bird time."

I'm a trainwreck, so thanks again to all of you for just virtually holding my hand right now.
k

 

[Mantissa3]

Quick update- found a local vet through this site: http://arav.allenpress.com/arav/findavet#stateHeadCA
Sorry if that is redundant to another post where we can all reference medical resources for our torts, but it was a relief to find someone so engaged, accessible, and well-educated who actually told me she would not consent to gravage feeding, as she wasn't experienced in it and didn't want to risk Gib's life to practice doing it by herself. She also told me she is still learning and does regular posts and consultations with herp vets who have much more experience than she does, but she still needs hands-on mentoring with certain aspects of tortoise case.

She graduated from University of California Veterinary School, Davis, and referred me to the medical practice associated with the teaching herp animal hospital for "difficult cases".

She was able to give a hydration injection, then prescribed meds based upon a fecal float result indicating specific parasites.

She also taught me a truly non-harmful, low risk way to get Gib to open his mouth any time I want- which makes me cry with relief just writing that here! Everyone else I've spoken with tells me whack stuff like prying at his beak with a flat-headed screw driver or dental picks, which I will never, ever do to any animal, especial one who is sick and stressed for crying out loud! (Yes, a vet told me the flat headed screwdriver thing...)

Here's how I've been able to open his mouth using his own natural behaviour since last evening- to give him the bit of oral meds to soothe his digestive tract and to administer the parasite meds:

1) You hold him in both hands and gently, and rather slowly, angle his tail just a few degrees higher than his head, which makes Gibby "reach out" with his front arms at some specific angle he's not comfortable at - as if he's sliding down a gentle slope in the yard (natural behavior vs me prying at him with a metal object.)

2) Once his forelegs are extended, I just grip one of them gently, holding but not pinching, using my thumb and pointer finger - I hold the leg out at the angle he had it at, then slowly lower his backside at an angle lower than his head and prop him up in my lap, still holding (not squeezing or pinching his "arm")

3) I'm right-handed, so I use my left hand to hold his "arm" out extended at his chosen angle, then use my right hand to grab whatever it is- a smal piece of food with his meds, or the syringe with no needle that I've filled with his prescribed does of oral meds.

4) Then I take whatever it is I picked up and very gently tap on his beak- he can't withdraw into his shell because I'm holding his arm (gently- don't pull when he tries to retract, just hold him there with very little opposing pressure). Since he can't withdraw into his shell, he makes his ferocious gaping mouth face to chase off the intruder, and I gently place the small bit of food or fluid IN THE FRONT OF HIS MOUTH - trying to stick liquids or chunks or long pieces of food down there throats can make them choke or asphyxiate...

Once the liquid or piece of food is in the pointy front part of his mouth, I just level him out and set him down on the towel or layers of paper towels and he swallows whatever I put in his mouth.

Again- I'm so relieved that I can start administering the Critical Care food (OxBow brand for tortoises/vegetarians) annd his meds and a few small pieces of fruits and veggies!

I expect my next few updates will let you know whether this "worked" or not, with respect to his energy level, being able to go to the bathroom, and keeping up with his need for hydration.

Karen

 

[Mantissa3]

Quick update- Gib's doing a lot better since he can eat small bits of good food now. He's resting quietly today. I took him back to the same vet to get the same view x-ray as before/above, just to be sure the bright shiney object passed through. It did and didn't seem to leave behind any fragments or other dense objects- I'm attaching the "after" x-ray.

In retrospect, he ate something he shouldn't have, passed it a few days later, it upset his digestive tract, and I had to go to 3 different animal clinics to piece together this simple explanation. In the meantime I kept him hydrated (always good), fed him very small chunks of veggies and fruit since he completely emptied out (always good).

Bad that came out of this is -- I asked a doctor to give him sub-Q fluids, which she over-did and his back legs quit working because she loaded so much fluid into each back leg that he couldn't walk and was dragging his back legs (he still is a bit- this was last night and he still doesn't have the use of his back legs to stand up on), and the fact that I ran around crazy, taking time off work to chase the next doctor/clinic that might give me some vision into a straight way forward with appropriate treatment, and I've spent over $1,500 at this point.

Don't know if I'll have to spend more- waiting for Gib's sub-Q fluid to absorb, to see if she pulled his legs out of joint, or whether this is (as she said) "normal" because the sub-Q fluid won't let his muscles flex and work in the back legs until it is all absorbed.

(She gave him a total of 35ml, half in each back leg above the thigh - does this sound weird to any of you? I think it is way too much to inflict on a 2 pound baby tortie.)

 

[crimson_lotus]

Oh no, poor baby I hope her legs get better!

So they did find specific parasites? (I'm reading your update from Saturday as well) and why was she given hydration shots, was she really dehydrated? (I'm no vet, just curious!)

 

[Mantissa3]

Oh no, poor baby I hope her legs get better!

So they did find specific parasites? (I'm reading your update from Saturday as well) and why was she given hydration shots, was she really dehydrated? (I'm no vet, just curious!)

Thank you! Yes, they found specific parasites including a very low level of cocci so they have prescribed a mild oral antibiotic by mouth, injected broad spectrum antibiotic via injection every 3rd day, and some more medicine by mouth for the cocci. I thought Gib was getting dehydrated because of the antibiotics, so I brought it up when I went to see the doctor for the 2nd set of x-rays. He has been straining like he has to go to the bathroom, but producing nothing, and his skin has a really dry appearance even though I'm soaking him in warm water and Pedialyte about 6 times per day, as long as he will stay in.

The Dr. said it wouldn't hurt to give him sub-Q fluids with electrolytes, but now he is paralyzed in his rear legs, so it did make him take a turn for the worse!

I'm wondering though if the sub-Q fluids could've hydrated his digestive tract and intestines enough to make him start to pass a big "chunk" of something like undigested food that he's been storing. If so, maybe it is a large chunk and is pressing on his spine so that the lower half of his body isn't responding or something.

I'm no vet either- I'm just totally exhausted from this entire experience, and I want my active, healthy, lovely baby back as soon as possible. He's absolutely miserable too, I'm sure. Today we are letting him rest, no matter what happens - he just needs to do him for a while without getting poked or rousted about I think.

Thanks for checking in,
k

 

[Mantissa3]

Here are the parasite results from the fecal float, they gave me Panacur and ponazuril (Marquis Paste), saying the Panacur is for most worms and parasites, and the Pnazuril is specifically for Coccidia. The Panacur is 5 days by mouth, the ponazuril was 3 days by mouth, then wait 3 weeks, and then 3 days by mouth again:

Test Result OVA&PARA Reference Range

FV ID MI REPTILE

OVA & PARASITES
NYCTOTHERUS PRESENT MODERATE (11-30)
COCCIDIA OOCYSTS PRESENT FEW (3-10)
PROTOZOAN CYSTS SEEN - PARASITE STAIN REQUIRED FOR
IDENTIFICATION



Thank you! Yes, they found specific parasites including a very low level of cocci so they have prescribed a mild oral antibiotic by mouth, injected broad spectrum antibiotic via injection every 3rd day, and some more medicine by mouth for the cocci. I thought Gib was getting dehydrated because of the antibiotics, so I brought it up when I went to see the doctor for the 2nd set of x-rays. He has been straining like he has to go to the bathroom, but producing nothing, and his skin has a really dry appearance even though I'm soaking him in warm water and Pedialyte about 6 times per day, as long as he will stay in.

The Dr. said it wouldn't hurt to give him sub-Q fluids with electrolytes, but now he is paralyzed in his rear legs, so it did make him take a turn for the worse!

I'm wondering though if the sub-Q fluids could've hydrated his digestive tract and intestines enough to make him start to pass a big "chunk" of something like undigested food that he's been storing. If so, maybe it is a large chunk and is pressing on his spine so that the lower half of his body isn't responding or something.

I'm no vet either- I'm just totally exhausted from this entire experience, and I want my active, healthy, lovely baby back as soon as possible. He's absolutely miserable too, I'm sure. Today we are letting him rest, no matter what happens - he just needs to do him for a while without getting poked or rousted about I think.

Thanks for checking in,
k

 

[crimson_lotus]

That's a lot of stuff for the little guy Glad she's getting the day to rest.

I don't think the undigested food would cause the paralysis. My uneducated guess would be that MAYBE a nerve was hit to cause it temporarily - again, not an expert!! anyone feel free to tell me I'm wrong!

I wish both you and your tortoise the best, keep us updated!

 

[Mantissa3]

That's a lot of stuff for the little guy Glad she's getting the day to rest.

I don't think the undigested food would cause the paralysis. My uneducated guess would be that MAYBE a nerve was hit to cause it temporarily - again, not an expert!! anyone feel free to tell me I'm wrong!

I wish both you and your tortoise the best, keep us updated!

Crimson Lotus- thank you for responding to my posts and updates, so very much.

Well, one thing is for sure- I'm not going back to that same vet. She is a fill-in for my 40-year herp vet who is out of office for a couple of months.

Gib's not in pain. I've seen him in pain and this isn't it. He's resting peacefully, I'm spending a lot of time with him today so I can just be with him and watch him sleep; and he's eating all his favorite stuff. I thought it might be a temporary issue- such as a temporary impaction pressing on his spine, or some swelling somewhere from the shots and whatnot.

My husband knows absolutely nothing about herp care, but he took one look at Gibby and said, "Let him rest, he's just a baby! We have drug him all over to three different doctors and he's had shots and pills and had to eat medicine for 10 days straight- just let him rest!!!"

Right now he's beside me on a heating pad on the couch dozing- just woke up, yawned a huge yawn so I could see down his throat- no obstructions, no mucous, just clear and huge yawn.

It's so hard to know when to go to the vet and when to just let nature take its course.... The vets I've been talking to have done everything they know how, it seems, so it's "nature take its course" time for little Gibby!

Thank you for keeping me company here, and for being willing to post your thoughts and experiences too.
k

 

[crimson_lotus]

I agree with your husband He is still little and I think he would benefit from a stress-free break.

It's good you're so caring and willing to go through all of this for your tortoise. I had a little protozoa scare when my tortoise "tested positive for parasites"...it was really just something fairly common in the gut flora of tortoises called balantidium, and she had a slightly higher than average count. My vet and I were even unable to find any information on the negative side effects to having a high amount of balantidium in the stool, so we just left her as-is. She had pneumonia on top of that with injections every 3 days and I didn't want to stress her out even more.

Gotta really watch those vets, I almost paid for the whole shabang on that one if I didn't look into it and ask questions.

 

[Mantissa3]

SUB-Q FLUIDS FROM THE VET - FOR A RED FOOT TORTOISE - possibly for any tortoise, not just Red Foots.

Do not ever let your vets inject sub-Q (just under the skin, but not in the muscle) fluids, such as electrolytes and water, into your tortoise in the location I've circled here on my uploaded x-ray!!!!

My vet did this and my baby red foot is dragging his legs behind him and his tail is completely limp and being drug behind him too.

When I called and connected with her about 24 hours after she did this, she contacted an experienced Herp vet, and he confirmed that injecting fluids for hydrating tortoises in this location on their bodies can often cause paralysis of the back legs and tail. He also said it is usually a transient paralysis. She had never experienced this, and didn't know. There is a loose flap of skin just above their leg, accessible by straightening their legs - it is "above" the leg (towards the head) sort of in the hollow of the part of the shell that houses their legs.

I'm uploading some circles on a top-view x-ray so you can see the region I'm talking about better.

Hope this helps others avoid the heartache of watching their torts drag their tails and hind legs around in future....

Karen

 

[Mantissa3]

I agree with your husband He is still little and I think he would benefit from a stress-free break.

It's good you're so caring and willing to go through all of this for your tortoise. I had a little protozoa scare when my tortoise "tested positive for parasites"...it was really just something fairly common in the gut flora of tortoises called balantidium, and she had a slightly higher than average count. My vet and I were even unable to find any information on the negative side effects to having a high amount of balantidium in the stool, so we just left her as-is. She had pneumonia on top of that with injections every 3 days and I didn't want to stress her out even more.

Gotta really watch those vets, I almost paid for the whole shabang on that one if I didn't look into it and ask questions.

It's terrifying. I love this baby so much- he went through more than most animals ever have to endure by the time he was 3 months old. Then he had a really good life with my husband and me until lately. Now I feel awful that he's had to go through so much recently, just trying to figure out the best path for healing. If I had it to do over, and if I were younger, I'd go to medical school to become a tortie vet, get funded, and travel around seeing only tortoises and learn from the best so I could make sure people knew what was going on when their herds got sick.

I'm sorry for your struggles with the parasite scare, crimson lotus! You just feel so helpless and don't know who to trust- and then have to give them injections too! I'm glad she is ok and that you seem to have a good vet!
Karen