Hatch rite substrate for incubation

[Kat99]

Hi!
My Russian tortoise Bella laid two eggs February 1. This is the first time I have incubated eggs of any kind — I wasn’t trying to breed her but she did get together with my two boys a few times, and, well, there were hijinks! The eggs seem to be doing very nicely in their incubator in Hatch Rite substrate at 87 degrees with 60% humidity. I check on them regularly.
Only twice have I “candled” them with a flashlight (without moving them). The first flashlight check showed a little dark blob in an orangey matrix. The second, a few days ago, showed them almost completely dark, with a little bit of orangey color visible outside the dark mass (aka baby!) and an air pocket at the top of the egg. So I think they may be ready to hatch soon!
I am a bit anxious about the imminent hatching, though. Is Hatch Rite safe for them to be on after they emerge from their eggs, or should I move them to a brooder box as soon as they pip?
Either way, I know I need to soak them as soon as the emerge, and set them up with a warm, safe and moist environment with food and shallow water. But I want to be sure the incubation substrate won’t harm Bella’s babies.
Any other tips would be appreciated!
Thanks!

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I wasn't able to quickly find what Hatchrite contains. Maybe @Tom can help you?

 

[Kat99]

I wasn't able to quickly find what Hatchrite contains. Maybe @Tom can help you?

Thanks!

 

[zovick]

Hi!
My Russian tortoise Bella laid two eggs February 1. This is the first time I have incubated eggs of any kind — I wasn’t trying to breed her but she did get together with my two boys a few times, and, well, there were hijinks! The eggs seem to be doing very nicely in their incubator in Hatch Rite substrate at 87 degrees with 60% humidity. I check on them regularly.
Only twice have I “candled” them with a flashlight (without moving them). The first flashlight check showed a little dark blob in an orangey matrix. The second, a few days ago, showed them almost completely dark, with a little bit of orangey color visible outside the dark mass (aka baby!) and an air pocket at the top of the egg. So I think they may be ready to hatch soon!
I am a bit anxious about the imminent hatching, though. Is Hatch Rite safe for them to be on after they emerge from their eggs, or should I move them to a brooder box as soon as they pip?
Either way, I know I need to soak them as soon as the emerge, and set them up with a warm, safe and moist environment with food and shallow water. But I want to be sure the incubation substrate won’t harm Bella’s babies.
Any other tips would be appreciated!
Thanks!

At what temp is your incubator? From what I can see in the photo, it appears to be at just about 87-88F but that thermometer is not the most accurate type.

I have no experience hatching Russian Tortoise eggs, but you may have a bit longer to wait than you think. Most tortoise eggs I have hatched took roughly 90 days to hatch when incubated at about 87-88F. If these Russian Tortoise eggs have about the same incubation time, they may not hatch until later in April or early May.

 

[zovick]

I wasn't able to quickly find what Hatchrite contains. Maybe @Tom can help you?

From the photos posted by the OP and on the Hatchrite web site, the Hatchrite looks like it is made of perlite. Instead of being pelleted as it is in some potting soils, it looks as though it is in its natural state or may possibly have been shredded.

 

[Kat99]

At what temp is your incubator? From what I can see in the photo, it appears to be at just about 87-88F but that thermometer is not the most accurate type.

I have no experience hatching Russian Tortoise eggs, but you may have a bit longer to wait than you think. Most tortoise eggs I have hatched took roughly 90 days to hatch when incubated at about 87-88F. If these Russian Tortoise eggs have about the same incubation time, they may not hatch until later in April or early May.

Thanks for your reply! Yes, I know it could take longer, but I want to be sure I’m ready just in case they hatch sooner! I’m using two thermometers and hygrometers — one internally as you can see, and the device built into the Reptibator. They tend to agree on temperature and humidity.
Question— did you get girls when you incubated at 87-88? Or a mix?

 

[zovick]

Thanks for your reply! Yes, I know it could take longer, but I want to be sure I’m ready just in case they hatch sooner! I’m using two thermometers and hygrometers — one internally as you can see, and the device built into the Reptibator. They tend to agree on temperature and humidity.
Question— did you get girls when you incubated at 87-88? Or a mix?

That temp should give a mix of sexes. I hatched literally hundreds of Star Tortoises of all three types and can say that temps of 84-85F produced males and 89-90F produced females extremely reliably in those three.

I have also hatched numerous Radiated Tortoises and can also say that those same temperatures were not as reliable for determining sexes in baby Radiated Tortoises.

I can't say what genders you may get with those temps in Russian Tortoises since I have never incubated any eggs of that species, but I would surmise that a mix of genders would be expected as I said above.

 

[Kat99]

From the photos posted by the OP and on the Hatchrite web site, the Hatchrite looks like it is made of perlite. Instead of being pelleted as it is in some potting soils, it looks as though it is in its natural state or may possibly have been shredded.

Thanks for checking! Is Perlite something that can harm them if it touches them, or only if they eat it?

 

[zovick]

Thanks for checking! Is Perlite something that can harm them if it touches them, or only if they eat it?

I believe that it is only harmful if ingested. Therefore, as soon as you see one hatch, take it out of that substrate and gently rinse the perlite off of it before it decides it wants to try a bite of it.

@Tom could probably add more info plus tell you how to properly set up a "brooder box" for new babies to help give them the best possible start in life.

 

[Kat99]

I believe that it is only harmful if ingested. Therefore, as soon as you see one hatch, take it out of that substrate and gently rinse the perlite off of it before it decides it wants to try a bite of it.

@Tom could probably add more info plus tell you how to properly set up a "brooder box" for new babies to help give them the best possible start in life.

Thank you! That’s exactly what I needed to know!

 

[Tom]

Hi!
My Russian tortoise Bella laid two eggs February 1. This is the first time I have incubated eggs of any kind — I wasn’t trying to breed her but she did get together with my two boys a few times, and, well, there were hijinks! The eggs seem to be doing very nicely in their incubator in Hatch Rite substrate at 87 degrees with 60% humidity. I check on them regularly.
Only twice have I “candled” them with a flashlight (without moving them). The first flashlight check showed a little dark blob in an orangey matrix. The second, a few days ago, showed them almost completely dark, with a little bit of orangey color visible outside the dark mass (aka baby!) and an air pocket at the top of the egg. So I think they may be ready to hatch soon!
I am a bit anxious about the imminent hatching, though. Is Hatch Rite safe for them to be on after they emerge from their eggs, or should I move them to a brooder box as soon as they pip?
Either way, I know I need to soak them as soon as the emerge, and set them up with a warm, safe and moist environment with food and shallow water. But I want to be sure the incubation substrate won’t harm Bella’s babies.
Any other tips would be appreciated!
Thanks!

This is a hard "NO!" for two reasons:
1. Contrary to what some people say on the internet, any tortoise will eat some of their incubation substrate while they are still INSIDE the egg. I've seen my own do it, and I've seen video of others doing it. Because of this, perlite should never be used. If they pip right as you are going to bed, they will have eaten some by morning. I use vermiculite, and their first poops after 7-10 days always have some vermiculite flecks in them. I remove the babes from the incubation chamber as soon as they leave their egg under their own power. I rinse, soak, and move them into brooder boxes lines with grape leaves, mulberry leaves, hibiscus leaves, or something similar.
2. Russians need to be incubated on DRY media. Damp media can kill the eggs. Humidity in the incubation chamber should be kept high, 80% or more, but the media needs to be dry. This is contrary to every other species that I know of.

Most Russian eggs hatch at around 60 days.

I've incubated a few of them, but not a lot. Let's bring in @Carol S and @biochemnerd808 to verify what I'm telling you is all correct, and add to it.

Here is some general info on hatchling care:

How To Incubate Eggs And Start Hatchlings

I put my eggs in a plastic shoe box with a lid on it and put the shoe box in the incubator. You can drill a couple of very small holes around the top of the container, but not on the lid. I use vermiculite as an incubation media. I mix it in a 1 : 1 ratio with water by weight for Sulcatas and...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Tom]

I'm not referring to anyone on this forum in my above statements. There is a notable person who likes to argue and ridicule people who have a problem with some of his practices. He is a fool that doesn't realize the harm he is doing. At least not yet.

 

[Kat99]

This is a hard "NO!" for two reasons:
1. Contrary to what some people say on the internet, any tortoise will eat some of their incubation substrate while they are still INSIDE the egg. I've seen my own do it, and I've seen video of others doing it. Because of this, perlite should never be used. If they pip right as you are going to bed, they will have eaten some by morning. I use vermiculite, and their first poops after 7-10 days always have some vermiculite flecks in them. I remove the babes from the incubation chamber as soon as they leave their egg under their own power. I rinse, soak, and move them into brooder boxes lines with grape leaves, mulberry leaves, hibiscus leaves, or something similar.
2. Russians need to be incubated on DRY media. Damp media can kill the eggs. Humidity in the incubation chamber should be kept high, 80% or more, but the media needs to be dry. This is contrary to every other species that I know of.

Most Russian eggs hatch at around 60 days.

I've incubated a few of them, but not a lot. Let's bring in @Carol S and @biochemnerd808 to verify what I'm telling you is all correct, and add to it.

Here is some general info on hatchling care:

How To Incubate Eggs And Start Hatchlings

I put my eggs in a plastic shoe box with a lid on it and put the shoe box in the incubator. You can drill a couple of very small holes around the top of the container, but not on the lid. I use vermiculite as an incubation media. I mix it in a 1 : 1 ratio with water by weight for Sulcatas and...

tortoiseforum.org

Thanks so much. That’s the kind of thing I needed to know.
Wish I’d known about the toxicity before I put them in hatch rite, but I was in such a rush to get the eggs into the incubator after she laid them… and I thought it would be good because it is supposedly designed for reptile incubation.
One possibility is to switch them to vermiculite once they pip. An alternative is to put them on the paper towel setup after they pip, to be super safe, but I read that that makes it harder for them to hatch because they need the egg to be cradled in substrate.
But either way, if they truly are in danger of ingesting perlite, perhaps I should switch them to vermiculite before they pip. Is there a point at which it is safe to gently transfer them before they pip? They are 52 days old now and have not been moved since day one.

Thanks also for the link to the hatchling care sheet. I actually found and printed that up last week!

 

[Tom]

Thanks so much. That’s the kind of thing I needed to know.
Wish I’d known about the toxicity before I put them in hatch rite, but I was in such a rush to get the eggs into the incubator after she laid them… and I thought it would be good because it is supposedly designed for reptile incubation.
One possibility is to switch them to vermiculite once they pip. An alternative is to put them on the paper towel setup after they pip, to be super safe, but I read that that makes it harder for them to hatch because they need the egg to be cradled in substrate.
But either way, if they truly are in danger of ingesting perlite, perhaps I should switch them to vermiculite before they pip. Is there a point at which it is safe to gently transfer them before they pip? They are 52 days old now and have not been moved since day one.

Thanks also for the link to the hatchling care sheet. I actually found and printed that up last week!

Perlite isn't toxic. It lines their intestinal tract and slowly kills them, or greatly hampers heir digestion which results in failure to thrive. I know this because I paid for two necropsies to figure out what the heck was going on with some babies that I'd bought. I was afraid they might have some terrible contagious disease.

I think hatch rite is fine for snakes, and probably most lizards and crocodilians too. Those animals don't eat any of their substrate upon hatching.

You can move the eggs at any time. I would not wait for a pip. Put them on dry vermiculite ASAP, and be sure you don't rotate them. You can gently use a pencil to mark an "X" on the top of each egg and make sure the "X" stays up at all times. When they begin to pip, you can add water to the media to help them hatch and extricate themselves from their eggs. You also need to get humidity up in your incubator. Most people do this by adding open bowls of water.

 

[Kat99]

Perlite isn't toxic. It lines their intestinal tract and slowly kills them, or greatly hampers heir digestion which results in failure to thrive. I know this because I paid for two necropsies to figure out what the heck was going on with some babies that I'd bought. I was afraid they might have some terrible contagious disease.

I think hatch rite is fine for snakes, and probably most lizards and crocodilians too. Those animals don't eat any of their substrate upon hatching.

You can move the eggs at any time. I would not wait for a pip. Put them on dry vermiculite ASAP, and be sure you don't rotate them. You can gently use a pencil to mark an "X" on the top of each egg and make sure the "X" stays up at all times. When they begin to pip, you can add water to the media to help them hatch and extricate themselves from their eggs. You also need to get humidity up in your incubator. Most people do this by adding open bowls of water.

Thanks so much for sharing tour knowledge and experience! I t’s a relief to know I can transfer them safely. I will get some vermiculite today, set it up and very gently move them. I have two open bowls of water in the incubator but will add more. The tops of the eggs are already marked.

 

[biochemnerd808]

This is a hard "NO!" for two reasons:
1. Contrary to what some people say on the internet, any tortoise will eat some of their incubation substrate while they are still INSIDE the egg. I've seen my own do it, and I've seen video of others doing it. Because of this, perlite should never be used. If they pip right as you are going to bed, they will have eaten some by morning. I use vermiculite, and their first poops after 7-10 days always have some vermiculite flecks in them. I remove the babes from the incubation chamber as soon as they leave their egg under their own power. I rinse, soak, and move them into brooder boxes lines with grape leaves, mulberry leaves, hibiscus leaves, or something similar.
2. Russians need to be incubated on DRY media. Damp media can kill the eggs. Humidity in the incubation chamber should be kept high, 80% or more, but the media needs to be dry. This is contrary to every other species that I know of.

Most Russian eggs hatch at around 60 days.

I've incubated a few of them, but not a lot. Let's bring in @Carol S and @biochemnerd808 to verify what I'm telling you is all correct, and add to it.

Here is some general info on hatchling care:

How To Incubate Eggs And Start Hatchlings

I put my eggs in a plastic shoe box with a lid on it and put the shoe box in the incubator. You can drill a couple of very small holes around the top of the container, but not on the lid. I use vermiculite as an incubation media. I mix it in a 1 : 1 ratio with water by weight for Sulcatas and...

tortoiseforum.org

All of this is correct.

I use bone dry vermiculite with added air humidity via open containers. I move the piping egg into a separate container lined with moist paper towels, including a little donut out of paper towel to hold the egg steady. Baby hatches without the egg rolling all over the place. I already place some fresh green weeds in there, and many will nibble from day 1. I keep the babies in the incubator in a little broader box with moist paper towels and lots of weeds for 3-4 days, then move them to their habitat. Daily soaks, mist 3-4x a day will start them off good and smooth. I leave the egg shells in with them, and they often nibble on those, too.

Mine hatch between 60 and 75 days when incubate at 89-90°F. Even within one clutch the hatching day can vary. I don't give up on an egg until it reaches 100 days or starts oozing or cracking. Most hatch after around 63 days...

 

[Kat99]

I set up vermiculite, got the temp & humidity correct, and gently moved the eggs last week. Tonight I discovered a pip!

 

[Kat99]

All of this is correct.

I use bone dry vermiculite with added air humidity via open containers. I move the piping egg into a separate container lined with moist paper towels, including a little donut out of paper towel to hold the egg steady. Baby hatches without the egg rolling all over the place. I already place some fresh green weeds in there, and many will nibble from day 1. I keep the babies in the incubator in a little broader box with moist paper towels and lots of weeds for 3-4 days, then move them to their habitat. Daily soaks, mist 3-4x a day will start them off good and smooth. I leave the egg shells in with them, and they often nibble on those, too.

Mine hatch between 60 and 75 days when incubate at 89-90°F. Even within one clutch the hatching day can vary. I don't give up on an egg until it reaches 100 days or starts oozing or cracking. Most hatch after around 63 days...

Thank you, Katie! The first egg pipped this evening!

 

[Kat99]

This morning the baby’s head was out as well as one foot. I was adding a little moisture to the vermiculite and some water accidentally dripped on the baby’s head. I hope it didn’t get into its nose. Baby withdrew back into the shell for a few minutes but is now putting its little head back out. I’m excited but also nervous hoping I didn’t do any harm.

 

[Tom]

This morning the baby’s head was out as well as one foot. I was adding a little moisture to the vermiculite and some water accidentally dripped on the baby’s head. I hope it didn’t get into its nose. Baby withdrew back into the shell for a few minutes but is now putting its little head back out. I’m excited but also nervous hoping I didn’t do any harm.

I always add moisture when I get my first pip. It helps them get out of their sticky eggs. The drop of water should do no harm.

Congratulations on the new baby!

They are probably fine in the brooder box together, assuming the other one also hatches, but since there are only two, you will need separate enclosures for them when the time comes to move them into their first enclosures.