Heat and lighting advice

[Kelly33]

Hello there,
I’ll finally be getting a Russian tortoise (approx 4”) in the next couple of weeks and I’m in the process of setting up the enclosure. I have a question about heating and lighting- I’ve bought the Zoo Med Combo Mini Deep Dome Clamp Lamp Fixture and I’m wondering what are the best bulbs as far as creating a basking spot and for providing correct indoor lighting?
And these lights both go off at night, correct? My tort will be indoors where the night temps will be in the high 60s to low 70s, so I understand the heat lamp will be turned off at night?
Thanks!

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome!

If you are getting a 4" tortoise, and a double dome fixture, I'm going to guess you are buying at a pet store? Here's my advice: Don't.
Pet stores are full of all sorts of bad advice and products the are over priced, useless and sometimes dangerous. Buy your tortoise from a breeder who knows the tortoise's history. Pet stores sell wild caught tortoises. Many of these wild caught tortoises are full of all sorts of pathogens that are eventually fatal and many of them don't acclimate to a captive life very well.

I'm telling you all this because I want you to have a positive first tortoise experience and not have to learn these things the hard way.

To answer your questions more specifically, you only need one light fixture of that type for your basking bulb. You don't want to use a screw in type cfl UV bulb because they are ineffective and sometime harmful. Get a long tube type UV bulb for UV. Yes the lights should be off at night, and your tortoise will need a drop in night temps down to about 60-65.

Here is the correct care info:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

Hope this all helps. Feel free to ask lots of questions.

 

[Kelly33]

Hello and welcome!

If you are getting a 4" tortoise, and a double dome fixture, I'm going to guess you are buying at a pet store? Here's my advice: Don't.
Pet stores are full of all sorts of bad advice and products the are over priced, useless and sometimes dangerous. Buy your tortoise from a breeder who knows the tortoise's history. Pet stores sell wild caught tortoises. Many of these wild caught tortoises are full of all sorts of pathogens that are eventually fatal and many of them don't acclimate to a captive life very well.

I'm telling you all this because I want you to have a positive first tortoise experience and not have to learn these things the hard way.

To answer your questions more specifically, you only need one light fixture of that type for your basking bulb. You don't want to use a screw in type cfl UV bulb because they are ineffective and sometime harmful. Get a long tube type UV bulb for UV. Yes the lights should be off at night, and your tortoise will need a drop in night temps down to about 60-65.

Here is the correct care info:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

Hope this all helps. Feel free to ask lots of questions.

Hello and welcome!

If you are getting a 4" tortoise, and a double dome fixture, I'm going to guess you are buying at a pet store? Here's my advice: Don't.
Pet stores are full of all sorts of bad advice and products the are over priced, useless and sometimes dangerous. Buy your tortoise from a breeder who knows the tortoise's history. Pet stores sell wild caught tortoises. Many of these wild caught tortoises are full of all sorts of pathogens that are eventually fatal and many of them don't acclimate to a captive life very well.

I'm telling you all this because I want you to have a positive first tortoise experience and not have to learn these things the hard way.

To answer your questions more specifically, you only need one light fixture of that type for your basking bulb. You don't want to use a screw in type cfl UV bulb because they are ineffective and sometime harmful. Get a long tube type UV bulb for UV. Yes the lights should be off at night, and your tortoise will need a drop in night temps down to about 60-65.

Here is the correct care info:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

Hope this all helps. Feel free to ask lots of questions.

Thanks so much for the reply and welcome. I’ve actually not sourced out my tortoise yet but will be looking for one above 4” so that I am able to keep it in an open enclosure because, as I understand it, RTs smaller than 4” need to be kept in a closed habitat for humidity.
I’m curious as to why you think the dual lamp means a pet store purchase? I purchased it because I’d rather one fixture than two, is there a negative connotation with these fixtures? Why are screw in UV bulbs harmful? I’ve seen a lot of them in set-up photos.
I was about to post in the marketplace but figure I’ll ask here, is buying from breeders who send RTs by mail an ok thing to do? This greatly worries me but I seem to see a lot of people doing it.

 

[Bambam1989]

Thanks so much for the reply and welcome. I’ve actually not sourced out my tortoise yet but will be looking for one above 4” so that I am able to keep it in an open enclosure because, as I understand it, RTs smaller than 4” need to be kept in a closed habitat for humidity.
I’m curious as to why you think the dual lamp means a pet store purchase? I purchased it because I’d rather one fixture than two, is there a negative connotation with these fixtures? Why are screw in UV bulbs harmful? I’ve seen a lot of them in set-up photos.
I was about to post in the marketplace but figure I’ll ask here, is buying from breeders who send RTs by mail an ok thing to do? This greatly worries me but I seem to see a lot of people doing it.

MVB are fine, but the ones that look kinda curly tend to cause eye problems. I prefer the tubes because they create a broader, even light/uv source and last longer.
I'm not familiar with the humidity requirements for Russians so I can't comment on the open table.
Shipping is usually totally fine as long as the weather is appropriate. If the weather is to cold special care has to be taken and would need to be discussed with the breeder, such as a heat pack.

 

[Tom]

Thanks so much for the reply and welcome. I’ve actually not sourced out my tortoise yet but will be looking for one above 4” so that I am able to keep it in an open enclosure because, as I understand it, RTs smaller than 4” need to be kept in a closed habitat for humidity.
I’m curious as to why you think the dual lamp means a pet store purchase? I purchased it because I’d rather one fixture than two, is there a negative connotation with these fixtures? Why are screw in UV bulbs harmful? I’ve seen a lot of them in set-up photos.
I was about to post in the marketplace but figure I’ll ask here, is buying from breeders who send RTs by mail an ok thing to do? This greatly worries me but I seem to see a lot of people doing it.

All good questions!

My assumptions appear to have been wrong! My apologies.

Most people selling larger russians will be selling wild caught animals. If you look around, hopefully you will be able to locate someone selling a larger captive bred one, but those are much less commonly offered for sale. You might have to be patient.

Pet stores are infamous for selling people the wrong products. Those deep dome doubles are not needed for the vast majority of tortoise housing scenarios. The cfl bulbs sometimes burn reptile eyes. See it all the time. If someone was using a CHE in the double hood, that doesn't work either because you wan the basking bulb on one side and the CHE over the middle to maintain ambient. You'd also want the basking bulb on a timer and the CHE on its own thermostat, so again the double hood is no good. Wanna use a mercury vapor bulb? Can't use that in a deep dome or it will over heat and burn out prematurely.

Don't know where you are seeing photos of cfl bulbs being used, but millions of them are sold annually. People use them because they are cheap, easy, and they don't' know about the possible dangers, and some percentage of them burn reptile eyes. We have people all the time say they've been using them for years with no problem, and then one day they get one of the bad ones. I work with a lot of reptile vets and they've all got cases of eye burns to share. Best to use something safer and more effective as a UV source. I like the new HO bulbs.

We don't mail tortoises. That would take too long. They are overnight shipped with UPS or FedEx. Works great the vast majority of the time. You can find some horror stories here or there, but those are definitely not the norm.

 

[Kelly33]

All good questions!

My assumptions appear to have been wrong! My apologies.

Most people selling larger russians will be selling wild caught animals. If you look around, hopefully you will be able to locate someone selling a larger captive bred one, but those are much less commonly offered for sale. You might have to be patient.

Pet stores are infamous for selling people the wrong products. Those deep dome doubles are not needed for the vast majority of tortoise housing scenarios. The cfl bulbs sometimes burn reptile eyes. See it all the time. If someone was using a CHE in the double hood, that doesn't work either because you wan the basking bulb on one side and the CHE over the middle to maintain ambient. You'd also want the basking bulb on a timer and the CHE on its own thermostat, so again the double hood is no good. Wanna use a mercury vapor bulb? Can't use that in a deep dome or it will over heat and burn out prematurely.

Don't know where you are seeing photos of cfl bulbs being used, but millions of them are sold annually. People use them because they are cheap, easy, and they don't' know about the possible dangers, and some percentage of them burn reptile eyes. We have people all the time say they've been using them for years with no problem, and then one day they get one of the bad ones. I work with a lot of reptile vets and they've all got cases of eye burns to share. Best to use something safer and more effective as a UV source. I like the new HO bulbs.

We don't mail tortoises. That would take too long. They are overnight shipped with UPS or FedEx. Works great the vast majority of the time. You can find some horror stories here or there, but those are definitely not the norm.

Thanks for the information Tom and Bambam, that’s very helpful. Is there a link to some of the abbreviations you are using (MVB, HO, CHE) because I’m new to all of this! I ordered the light fixture online so I guess as soon as it arrives I’ll be sending it back. Do you have any recommendations on brands I could look at?
As far as sourcing the tortoise, I’ve seen a few online dealers (for example LLLReptile, who are advertising at the top of this page) who sell larger RT’s but there seems no guarantee they are captive bred. I’ve spoken to a local reptile vet who has given me some leads and names of rescue organisations I can check out too. Hopefully I’ll be able to find my tortoise soon.
And when I said mail I meant generally sent in a package, not bought in person. I’m British and I’m used to some words being lost in translation!

 

[Kelly33]

Ok, so I see a murcury vapour bulb will supply both heat for a basking spot and the correct indoor light? But it would need to be in a shallower dome to use that? What is the general opinion in using just the one bulb for both functions? And what is it about the deep dome that causes them to burn out faster? Thank you!

 

[Tom]

Ok, so I see a murcury vapour bulb will supply both heat for a basking spot and the correct indoor light? But it would need to be in a shallower dome to use that? What is the general opinion in using just the one bulb for both functions? And what is it about the deep dome that causes them to burn out faster? Thank you!

MVB = Mercury Vapor Bulb
CHE = Ceramic heating element
HO = High Output, as in the type of florescent tube

Mercury Vapor bulbs can work for older, larger tortoise that are mostly done growing, but I have a few problems with them:

1. The bulbs often burn out fast. Like within a few months or weeks sometimes. Sometimes they will fall under warranty, but its still a hassle.
2. They run hot. Real hot. So you have to be careful to mount them high enough, but not too high. This is why they can't be run in a deep dome. It will burn them out prematurely.
3. They produce a lot a infrared A which is very desiccating to the carapace.
4. We have a vet member here with a UV meter that tested some of these bulbs, and the current ones were only making measurable UV for 3 months, even though the bulb still lit up and looked like it was working. The only way for you to know how much UV your bulb is producing is to buy a meter and put it under your bulb.

For all of the above reasons, I prefer to use a regular 65 watt flood bulb from the hardware store for basking. I buy them in 6 or 12 packs, so I always have a spare on hand. I adjust the mounting height to get the correct temps under it. I run them on a timer for 12-14 hours a day.

In combination with the basking bulb described above, I run a florescent tube for UV. There are many types and how you use it depends on which one you get.

In some cases it is beneficial to run an additional florescent bulb to brighten up the enclosure a bit. Not always necessary, but usually beneficial.

If your house is staying above 60 at night, and your basking bulb is set correctly, you shouldn't need any night heat for an adult russian tortoise.

Here is the problem with buying an adult russian tortoise:

1. As a business, it is not cost effective to raise them for several years to adult size and then sell them when people can go to Petco and buy a WC (wild caught) for $100. No large tortoise seller does this. I love LLL and buy supplies from them regularly. The owner is a friend of mine. But I wouldn't buy an adult Russian tortoise from them unless they had somehow come across a collection of adult CB (captive bred) individuals to sell, which is not likely. You are not likely to find a CB adult from a large tortoise selling company on-line.
2. To get a CB adult, you will need to search for, and wait for, someone who has raised one, and now doesn't want it any more for whatever reason, and they are trying to sell it or give it away.
3. Be aware that the large pet chains will frequently mistakenly tell their customers that the animals they sell are CB or "farm raised" in the country of origin. They aren't. If someone bought one of these tortoises two years ago, and now want to sell it, they may tell you it was CB because that is what the kid at Petco told them. You will need to ask any seller to be specific about the origin of the tortoise. If they bought it as a baby from a local breeder, you are good to go. If they bought it from Petsmart 5 years ago, you are dealing with a WC.

Hope these thing help. Keep the questions coming. We want to help you make all the right choices and not have to learn all this the hard way.

 

[Kelly33]

Many thanks, that was very informative, particularly the tip about flood bulbs.
I think my years of volunteering at an animal rescue when I was younger have influenced my decision for wanting an adult. With cats and dogs, the cute babies always found a home fairly quickly and the adults would take much longer, but I’m finding this doesn’t necessarily translate across to tortoises. (Perhaps with the exception of salcatas?) So unless you can guarantee the RT hatched with a particular breeder, then literally any other method of obtaining a larger tortoise runs the risk of it being a WC, especially if people are being misinformed when they are first buying them. Before I reassess my wish for an adult, may I ask just how often this is a major problem? As in, if I took on a larger tortoise whose origin I couldn’t verify, had it looked over by the reptile vet I have spoken to, had a fecal exam conducted, and it was given a clean bill of health- then how likely is it to be a negative experience later? Do people just steer clear of adopting any tortoise with that kind of background or are there happy endings in this scenario? Many thanks