Help: Incubating Manouria Emys

rte123

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I have previously posted my difficulties with successfully incubation. I have 36-42 eggs yearly for 3 consecutive years but not one hatching. I collect the eggs within minutes of laying (it is usually 95-105 degrees outside in Fresno, Ca at that time), keep them upright and move them to the prepared incubators). I have been using Little Giants, keeping humidity 80-90%, 64-67 degrees, moist vermiculite in closed containers with 1/4" holes. I have tried having them sitting in cozy indentations and have tried burying them. Within a week, half of them begin to indent and proceed to cave in completely. Those few that maintain their shape usually develop grey mold. I wait up 100 days for hatching and when I open them in the end, there is no noticeable development. You can guess how disappointing this has been on multiple levels. It is time to start preparing for this spring and I need some serious help. I would also like suggestions for the practical set up of the "nursery". Believe me, I have read everything on these subjects here and many You tube vids. So, I think I need help specifically from those breeding this species. Thanks in advance.
 

ZEROPILOT

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I simply can't help. My hatch rate (for Redfoot) has been poor.
I've decided to not dig up eggs anymore after I found 2 babies in my pen that hatched all by themselves.
Is that an option for you?
 

Yvonne G

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Did you mean to type eighty four to eighty seven instead of 64 to 67 degrees? If you really meant in the sixties there's your problem.
 

rte123

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I simply can't help. My hatch rate (for Redfoot) has been poor.
I've decided to not dig up eggs anymore after I found 2 babies in my pen that hatched all by themselves.
Is that an option for you?

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate any suggestions. I have thought about it but then imagined the eggs cooking down there. But actually, I have no idea what temperature it is 4-6" under the topsoil in the shade (inside the kennel where she nests) in 100 plus degree weather. It is something I will eventually try before giving up. I know there are successful breeders of this species out there, some of which must have to cope also with harsh weather conditions. The problem, that I think others will also see, is that having MOST of the eggs not hatch implies greater likelihood that there is an alterable variable or two affecting the non-hatching eggs and that only the most hardy survive. But having NO eggs hatch, seems to me to imply that I am either overlooking a major, and what should be obvious factor, or that my female (about 12 yrs old) is laying infertile eggs. Of course, I don't have the breadth of experience that others have to give a reliable opinion. Apart from a slider in a pond, this is the only species I have worked with. Thanks again.
 

Yvonne G

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Thank you for your reply. I appreciate any suggestions. I have thought about it but then imagined the eggs cooking down there. But actually, I have no idea what temperature it is 4-6" under the topsoil in the shade (inside the kennel where she nests) in 100 plus degree weather. It is something I will eventually try before giving up. I know there are successful breeders of this species out there, some of which must have to cope also with harsh weather conditions. The problem, that I think others will also see, is that having MOST of the eggs not hatch implies greater likelihood that there is an alterable variable or two affecting the non-hatching eggs and that only the most hardy survive. But having NO eggs hatch, seems to me to imply that I am either overlooking a major, and what should be obvious factor, or that my female (about 12 yrs old) is laying infertile eggs. Of course, I don't have the breadth of experience that others have to give a reliable opinion. Apart from a slider in a pond, this is the only species I have worked with. Thanks again.
I hatched a few babies per clutch when I had the larger Manouria tortoises here. They nested annually and a few babies hatched per year out of clutches of near 50 eggs. When my tortoise partner, @Kapidolo Farms , took the larger group home with him to the San Diego area, the very first year they laid eggs, most of the eggs hatched. I think our problem here in this area is the weather isn't good. William did the same thing I did, that is, he gathered the eggs from the nest and incubated them. Hopefully he'll see the alert I just sent him and reply to your thread here.
 

rte123

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Did you mean to type eighty four to eighty seven instead of 64 to 67 degrees? If you really meant in the sixties there's your problem.
Yes, Yvonne. I did mean 64-67 degrees. Thanks for clarifying.
 

rte123

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I hatched a few babies per clutch when I had the larger Manouria tortoises here. They nested annually and a few babies hatched per year out of clutches of near 50 eggs. When my tortoise partner, @Kapidolo Farms , took the larger group home with him to the San Diego area, the very first year they laid eggs, most of the eggs hatched. I think our problem here in this area is the weather isn't good. William did the same thing I did, that is, he gathered the eggs from the nest and incubated them. Hopefully he'll see the alert I just sent him and reply to your thread here.
Thank you. What you said makes me think. The pattern has been that the first sign of being close is that she stops eating but does no scratching nor more than the usual perimeter examination. I have no nest building material naturally in my yard so, a week or two later, I head up into the mountains and bring down bags of pine needles, which she puts to use building her nest immediately and lays eggs within a few days. Maybe I am delaying her and thereby missing the boat, which is maybe more critical in our heat. I will provide
material earlier this year.
 

rte123

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And
Yes, Yvonne. I did mean 64-67 degrees. Thanks for clarifying.
And thanks for your reported experience. I hate to think that breeding them here is not plausible. My starting with this species and confidence in breeding them has been from the start seeing your little group (it was love at first site for me) and knowing that you have been successful. Hearing that you sent yours to San Diego is a little discouraging.
 

Markw84

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Just to clarify a few things...

The eggs need to be incubated at 84° - 87°. You stated you did mean 64°-67° Eggs will not start to develop at that temperature.

I cannot believe pine needles would be a good nesting material at all. Very low PH that would surely affect the eggs. The nest material naturally chosen is meant to decay and release heat for the eggs. Leaf litter and compost from the forest floor. Deciduous tree leaves.

Perhaps the eggs are just not fertile? Have you seen your tortoise successfully mating? You can tell a successful coupling with the male stopping his rhythmic grunting, and stays there almost trance-like and will often emit a few slower groans! Are the pair related or separate bloodlines?
 

rte123

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Just to clarify a few things...

You would think that I would have the temp etched in my brain by now but I just had to look back at my notes. I tried to keep the temps between 84 and 87. Occasionally the temp dropped to 82 to 83 and a couple of times I found them up to 90. I keep them in the house away from the a/c and keep the room temp at 80 with a space heater in case the power goes out. Still, there was this flux of temps. I am thinking of building a more reliable incubator but am waiting to collate others’ thoughts before I decide to even keep going with them. They are definitely mating: pretty classic approaching, chasing, mounting, deep throated almost honking of the male. And it is almost continual throughout daylight hours. Any other thoughts?
As for pine needles, deciduous trees are just not dropping leaves at that time of year. I have driven around looking for gardeners with trimmings but they are always mixed with tree types that are unfamiliar and I also worry about chemical use. Is there something I can order by mail to provide better nesting material?
 
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rte123

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Just to clarify a few things...

The eggs need to be incubated at 84° - 87°. You stated you did mean 64°-67° Eggs will not start to develop at that temperature.

I cannot believe pine needles would be a good nesting material at all. Very low PH that would surely affect the eggs. The nest material naturally chosen is meant to decay and release heat for the eggs. Leaf litter and compost from the forest floor. Deciduous tree leaves.

Perhaps the eggs are just not fertile? Have you seen your tortoise successfully mating? You can tell a successful coupling with the male stopping his rhythmic grunting, and stays there almost trance-like and will often emit a few slower groans! Are the pair related or separate bloodlines?

You would think that I would have the temp etched in my brain by now but I just had to look back at my notes. I tried to keep the temps between 84 and 87. Occasionally the temp dropped to 82 to 83 and a couple of times I found them up to 90. I keep them in the house away from the a/c and keep the room temp at 80 with a space heater in case the power goes out. Still, there was this flux of temps. I am thinking of building a more reliable incubator but am waiting to collate others’ thoughts before I decide to even keep going with them. They are definitely mating: pretty classic approaching, chasing, mounting, deep throated almost honking of the male. And it is almost continual throughout daylight hours. Any other thoughts?
As for pine needles, deciduous trees are just not dropping leaves at that time of year. I have driven around looking for gardeners with trimmings but they are always mixed with tree types that are unfamiliar and I also worry about chemical use. Is there something I can order by mail to provide better nesting material? The eggs are hardly exposed to the nesting material, since I remove them within minutes of laying and place them on vermiculite. Still, I may have to take a road trip to pick up more appropriate material. Thank you for your suggestions.
They are of separate bloodlines.
I wonder if the ambient high temps may be causing otherwise imperceptible overheating of the female, rendering the eggs doa? Has anyone heard of that?
 

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