Help Red foot strange leg movements captured on camera.

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Yvonne would explain it better - she is one of the most experienced members here.

1. Sand (any type) is not good for tortoises, even mixed with soils. Avoid it. I think coconut coir would be better for the purpose (get it from a garden shop, its inexpensive).

2. From what I read, yes. This could happen from time to time and adult tortoise females may lay infertile eggs. I don't know how often it is and if there are females who don't lay eggs at all.

I really eager to know - as my tortoise is probably a female too

 

[wellington]

1. This could be very slippery floor (it looks like laminated floor to me). If you can, place your tortoise on other surface (like wood, concrete) and check if it walks normally.
2. Could be an issue with MBD or lack of exercise. This could be corrected (but fully reversed) with correct diet and UVB lightning. And a place to walk with "non-slippery" flooring - this is required for proper development of a muscular system and bone joints.
3. UVB lamps you use, probably last no more than 6 months with 6-8 hours of daily operation. T8 lamps provide less UVB than T5 HO, so 10.0 should be right type for you enclosure. You can put reflector back while looking for replacement. Redfoots don't need as much UVB as other species but it is still required. If you can let your tortoise walk under the bright natural sun 2-3 times a week just for 15 minutes this would be great alternative to using UVB lamp. And just a reminder, that any mesh and glass blocks UVB.
4. Her belly (plastron) looks healthy to me. Top of the shell looks fine too (there is pyramiding, but not too much). But I'm not experienced enough

MBD can not be reversed.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

MBD can not be reversed.

Yes, you are right. I just missed "not" in "but not fully reversed" sentence. Sad but true..

 

[wellington]

I think you need to improve the size of the enclosure, make sure the substrate is fine grade orchid bark, feed more, her legs looked very skinny to me. I also think there may have been a leg injury at some point. I don't think that movement is from being interrupted from egg laying. Although it's a similar movement, unless you know she was interrupted, I would mean more towards her needing better and correct care.

 

[wiery]

I think you need to improve the size of the enclosure, make sure the substrate is fine grade orchid bark, feed more, her legs looked very skinny to me. I also think there may have been a leg injury at some point. I don't think that movement is from being interrupted from egg laying. Although it's a similar movement, unless you know she was interrupted, I would mean more towards her needing better and correct care.

The substrate I have replaced, the left part is a special orchid substrate pine bark chunks to form a relatively rough natural ground, the right part with water retaining mats and carpet to form a more flat area, and a small shallow pool of water 30*17 area, a humidifier. Regarding hiding I have experimented with broken tiles or flower pots, and previously used half a bark tube, but she doesn't like any of it, preferring to find a corner to sleep in on her own, and currently she is able to get to rest quickly each night with the lights off.
For lamps I'm going to use zoomed T8 10.0 (currently my lamp slot is a T8). And let her see natural light every day.

I've discussed the diet a bit in another thread, and I'm currently going to feed less mazuria and more fruits and veggies so she doesn't get too much protein to gain weight too fast.

 

[wiery]

I think you need to improve the size of the enclosure, make sure the substrate is fine grade orchid bark, feed more, her legs looked very skinny to me. I also think there may have been a leg injury at some point. I don't think that movement is from being interrupted from egg laying. Although it's a similar movement, unless you know she was interrupted, I would mean more towards her needing better and correct care.

One more thing the glass windows on both sides of the case I covered with a cloth to make the glass walls less stressful for her.

 

[wellington]

Does she walk like that when not on a slippery surface?

 

[wellington]

If your enclosure is 6 foot by approximately 4 foot, that is way too small for that size RF. You really need to improve the enclosure size. A minimum for a small Russian is 4x8 and they stay much smaller than a RF. She needs a room sized enclosure. With proper room to roam, she can't get fat by over eating too much.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I've discussed the diet a bit in another thread, and I'm currently going to feed less mazuria and more fruits and veggies so she doesn't get too much protein to gain weight too fast

This will not happen.
Do not be concerned about your tortoise being overweight.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Do not be concerned about your tortoise being overweight.

If I remember right, tortoise weight is 780 grams with SCL of 16cm so Jackson ratio is higher than normal. Does it make sense at all to look at this ratio?
First time I've stumbled on an idea of tortoise obesity (and feeding every torts every other day as well) was RedfootNERDs care sheet for RF on this forum. Is still considered up to date?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

The substrate I have replaced, the left part is a special orchid substrate pine bark chunks to form a relatively rough natural ground, the right part with water retaining mats and carpet to form a more flat area, and a small shallow pool of water 30*17 area, a humidifier. Regarding hiding I have experimented with broken tiles or flower pots, and previously used half a bark tube, but she doesn't like any of it, preferring to find a corner to sleep in on her own, and currently she is able to get to rest quickly each night with the lights off.
For lamps I'm going to use zoomed T8 10.0 (currently my lamp slot is a T8). And let her see natural light every day.

I've discussed the diet a bit in another thread, and I'm currently going to feed less mazuria and more fruits and veggies so she doesn't get too much protein to gain weight too fast.

If your enclosure have a mesh top, you can cover it with a plastic lid or just an aluminium foil to retain humidity and temperature and remove humidifier to get more space. What are humidity and temperatures now?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

If I remember right, tortoise weight is 780 grams with SCL of 16cm so Jackson ratio is higher than normal. Does it make sense at all to look at this ratio?
First time I've stumbled on an idea of tortoise obesity (and feeding every torts every other day as well) was RedfootNERDs care sheet for RF on this forum. Is still considered up to date?

There is no official updated forum RF care sheet. And I don't disagree with the ratio. Or with NERD.
But I've kept Redfoot for decades now. And I feed mine heavily. They all just grow at different rates. And I've never seen an obese tortoise with my own eyes.
While I don't think it's as false as the statement that protein causes pyramiding. I fully believe that protein doesn't cause obesity in Redfoot. Any more than a diet lacking in other items is healthy either. I just wouldn't associate the two.
Any "fat" looking tortoise I've seen was fat because of other health issues.
I weigh my tortoises and do a physical exam every 3 months. I look for good weight gains. Good shell and skin. Clear eyes and strong legs with intact claws.
The only scale I use is that the weight must be up. Except in adults. Weight not going up usually means a sick tortoise. Especially if there are other signs with the eyes or legs. Etc.
I can possibly theorize that a very poorly or improperly fed Redfoot in a terrible and small enclosure can be extremely unhealthy. And ive seen some that were very thin. So it stands to reason that one COULD be fat.
But I'd still assume it was because of a medical issue or a husbandry issue and not diet alone.
Lower weight always concerns me. Heavier weight never does.
That's my spin on it, anyway.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I wish @Redfoot NERD was back on the forum.
He was someone I got help from myself.
I hope he's well.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I wish @Redfoot NERD was back on the forum.
He was someone I got help from myself.
I hope he's well.

Yes, let's hope for the best. Thank you for the detailed answer!

 

[wiery]

I've discussed the diet a bit in another thread, and I'm currently going to feed less mazuria and more fruits and veggies so she doesn't get too much protein to gain weight too fast

This will not happen.
Do not be concerned about your tortoise being overweight.

Ok, I'm not giving up protein completely, I put 8-10 mazurettes in her food at a time (the old large pellets), and after reading some other posts yesterday, the biggest cause of the back of the pyramid is still the humidity.

At one point every summer the whole house was her domain (I've read everyone's advice that this is a definite risk of uncertainty, I'll take care of it afterward), and she was seen exploring the house in her daily life (we don't have an outdoor balcony or garden). [So the amount of exercise is probably not my biggest concern, the most important thing right now is to make sure she's getting enough calcium and effective natural light]

Her food today

 

[wiery]

There is no official updated forum RF care sheet. And I don't disagree with the ratio. Or with NERD.
But I've kept Redfoot for decades now. And I feed mine heavily. They all just grow at different rates. And I've never seen an obese tortoise with my own eyes.
While I don't think it's as false as the statement that protein causes pyramiding. I fully believe that protein doesn't cause obesity in Redfoot. Any more than a diet lacking in other items is healthy either. I just wouldn't associate the two.
Any "fat" looking tortoise I've seen was fat because of other health issues.
I weigh my tortoises and do a physical exam every 3 months. I look for good weight gains. Good shell and skin. Clear eyes and strong legs with intact claws.
The only scale I use is that the weight must be up. Except in adults. Weight not going up usually means a sick tortoise. Especially if there are other signs with the eyes or legs. Etc.
I can possibly theorize that a very poorly or improperly fed Redfoot in a terrible and small enclosure can be extremely unhealthy. And ive seen some that were very thin. So it stands to reason that one COULD be fat.
But I'd still assume it was because of a medical issue or a husbandry issue and not diet alone.
Lower weight always concerns me. Heavier weight never does.
That's my spin on it, anyway.

Here's some rough weight notes, I'll add on belly measurements later (currently about 16-17cm long)

 

[wiery]

There is no official updated forum RF care sheet. And I don't disagree with the ratio. Or with NERD.
But I've kept Redfoot for decades now. And I feed mine heavily. They all just grow at different rates. And I've never seen an obese tortoise with my own eyes.
While I don't think it's as false as the statement that protein causes pyramiding. I fully believe that protein doesn't cause obesity in Redfoot. Any more than a diet lacking in other items is healthy either. I just wouldn't associate the two.
Any "fat" looking tortoise I've seen was fat because of other health issues.
I weigh my tortoises and do a physical exam every 3 months. I look for good weight gains. Good shell and skin. Clear eyes and strong legs with intact claws.
The only scale I use is that the weight must be up. Except in adults. Weight not going up usually means a sick tortoise. Especially if there are other signs with the eyes or legs. Etc.
I can possibly theorize that a very poorly or improperly fed Redfoot in a terrible and small enclosure can be extremely unhealthy. And ive seen some that were very thin. So it stands to reason that one COULD be fat.
But I'd still assume it was because of a medical issue or a husbandry issue and not diet alone.
Lower weight always concerns me. Heavier weight never does.
That's my spin on it, anyway.

Interestingly, I fed chicory and pumpkin, pear, mazuri, okra together today, and she chose chicory without hesitation and swept it up first.

 

[wiery]

Does she walk like that when not on a slippery surface?

For the most part, walks normally and steadily on both smooth and non-smooth surfaces (no dragging of the hind legs, abdominal suspension) and rarely exhibits this behavior.

 

[wiery]

If your enclosure have a mesh top, you can cover it with a plastic lid or just an aluminium foil to retain humidity and temperature and remove humidifier to get more space. What are humidity and temperatures now?

Humidifiers may not be something to give up and give up on, I currently live in the north where the winters are dry and cold, indoor humidity is currently only at 50% and the box averages roughly 80F humidity 70%, with slightly cooler temperatures at night.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Humidifiers may not be something to give up and give up on, I currently live in the north where the winters are dry and cold, indoor humidity is currently only at 50% and the box averages roughly 80F humidity 70%, with slightly cooler temperatures at night.

If the box have ventilation holes or open top then yes, you won't achieve high and consistent humidity without humidifiers. Covering vents and enclosure top still provides enough oxygen for tortoise, just in case.

If you are working on "greenhouse" enclosure now, then it's fine to leave the old one as it is.