Help Red foot strange leg movements captured on camera.

[wiery]

This time I photographed a strange hind leg movement of the RF, it very worrying to me, I seek help hope you can help me to see what happened to the terrapin's hind leg, I probably checked it and there is no wound, maybe it is sticking to something?
(Normally she can crawl quickly and smoothly, her legs can support her belly off the ground, this behavior is not an uninterrupted occurrence)
Please let me know if you have any leads. Thank you all.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

He's slipping on the floor and may have injured his/her leg.
Or a MBD issue.
He needs to be in a proper enclosure with a suitable substrate.
We've already discussed the UVB lighting. Correct? I'd like to rule out bone issues

 

[SuzanneZ]

This time I photographed a strange hind leg movement of the RF, it very worrying to me, I seek help hope you can help me to see what happened to the terrapin's hind leg, I probably checked it and there is no wound, maybe it is sticking to something?
(Normally she can crawl quickly and smoothly, her legs can support her belly off the ground, this behavior is not an uninterrupted occurrence)
Please let me know if you have any leads. Thank you all.

Slippery floor.

 

[wiery]

He's slipping on the floor and may have injured his/her leg.
Or a MBD issue.
He needs to be in a proper enclosure with a suitable substrate.
We've already discussed the UVB lighting. Correct? I'd like to rule out bone issues

I re-looked up the lamp manufacturer, is this kind of lamp, 10.0 model, did not use the reflector(my enclosure 80*40*40), the specific date of use is not very clear, may need to replace the new one, I use uvb test card for rough testing, the distance far when the card does not change color, close to some card color change, indicating that there is still uvb, the specific intensity of the value I'm not sure, but the lamp manufacturer has a numerical value of the reference graph.

When we first picked her up when she was maybe a year or two old, my father and I noticed that her shell wasn't very hard (at the time, we thought it might be because of her young age), and as we fed her her shell hardened, and so far when we've examined her shell it's very hard, and we haven't found any soft spots.

 

[wiery]

He's slipping on the floor and may have injured his/her leg.
Or a MBD issue.
He needs to be in a proper enclosure with a suitable substrate.
We've already discussed the UVB lighting. Correct? I'd like to rule out bone issues

This is what her back and abdomen look like now.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

1. This could be very slippery floor (it looks like laminated floor to me). If you can, place your tortoise on other surface (like wood, concrete) and check if it walks normally.
2. Could be an issue with MBD or lack of exercise. This could be corrected (but fully reversed) with correct diet and UVB lightning. And a place to walk with "non-slippery" flooring - this is required for proper development of a muscular system and bone joints.
3. UVB lamps you use, probably last no more than 6 months with 6-8 hours of daily operation. T8 lamps provide less UVB than T5 HO, so 10.0 should be right type for you enclosure. You can put reflector back while looking for replacement. Redfoots don't need as much UVB as other species but it is still required. If you can let your tortoise walk under the bright natural sun 2-3 times a week just for 15 minutes this would be great alternative to using UVB lamp. And just a reminder, that any mesh and glass blocks UVB.
4. Her belly (plastron) looks healthy to me. Top of the shell looks fine too (there is pyramiding, but not too much). But I'm not experienced enough

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

And could you give more details on spaces where your tortoise walks? Is it only living rooms or it has access to outdoors and natural sun (such as balcony or garden)? What are outside temperatures in winter and summer in your area?

While putting tortoise to walk around the house is not a good idea, I would take the risk and let it do it - tortoise need to walk and exercise to stay healthy (it's not only for the muscular strength, but for breathing and proper food digestion). Try to make spaces more suitable and safe for walking though (e.g. put non-slip mats on the floor, make some borders and watch out the doors so no one open the door while tortoise behind it).
But you really need to make dedicated, private space for your tortoise (I hope the idea with portable greenhouse will work out).

 

[wiery]

And could you give more details on spaces where your tortoise walks? Is it only living rooms or it has access to outdoors and natural sun (such as balcony or garden)? What are outside temperatures in winter and summer in your area?

While putting tortoise to walk around the house is not a good idea, I would take the risk and let it do it - tortoise need to walk and exercise to stay healthy (it's not only for the muscular strength, but for breathing and proper food digestion). Try to make spaces more suitable and safe for walking though (e.g. put non-slip mats on the floor, make some borders and watch out the doors so no one open the door while tortoise behind it).
But you really need to make dedicated, private space for your tortoise (I hope the idea with portable greenhouse will work out).

Thanks for the reply, I will try to create a better environment or greenhouse, I hadn't noticed the smooth floor affecting the tortoises limbs (letting her walk on the indoor floor for longer periods of time), I will look into using non-slip mats and replacing with new uvb's, also I would like to ask if uvb's usually last six months before they are thrown away? Even if the bulb still glows.

I open the glass windows every time when her sunbathe, and I'll be exposing her to more natural sunlight, the best place for sunlight is the indoor balcony(and she just chewed up a whole cuttlefish bone a while back)
I hope it's not a MBD bone problem.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thank you for listening to advice and trying to do the best for your tortoise!
1. Yes, the UVB light still glow but levels of UV they provide drops significantly. Some lamps (e.g. Arcadia) last more than a year with 6-8 hours on, some much less than that. Also T8 lamps, like you have, degrade quickier than T5 HO. Unfortunately, you can not tell reliably what is lamps UV level without special tool, radiometer, like Solarmeter 6.5 (which is pretty expensive). I have no experience with UV test cards and do not now if they provide accurate readings. Maybe you can find cheap Solarmeter's analog, but the trick is that it should be calibrated to measure indoor UVB (ideally in terms of UVI, not mW) - I haven't seen alternatives yet. With 2-3 hours a day new lamp could last for about one year and you can use new without reflector and then put it on in a 4-6 months. 1-2 hour in a week of natural sun exposure should provide enough UVB and you can simply turn off UVB lamp on "sunbathing" days to let it last even longer.
2. Inner balcony is a good place to take your tortoise for a walk. If you can arrange him some space there - that would be great. E.g. make something like sandbox or planter box with proper substrate, a hide and some plants. You don't have to put substrate over the whole area so people can use the balcony too
3. Let's hope it's not and MBD, or at least it's not serious state of MBD. The changes you plan to do should be enough to prevent MBD development.
4. Smooth floors when wet could be very slippery and tortoise cannot walk normally. It's like walking on ice - you can walk without falling, but it is very different from usual walk.
5. Glad that cuttlefish bone worked. Get another one and see, if tortoise would be interested. If calcium intake is enough they could ignore it for months. If your tortoise would try to eat new cuttlebone too, I would remove it for a week - too much calcium is not good either. And without UVB (sun or lamp) it wouldn't work anyway.

 

[wiery]

Thank you for listening to advice and trying to do the best for your tortoise!
1. Yes, the UVB light still glow but levels of UV they provide drops significantly. Some lamps (e.g. Arcadia) last more than a year with 6-8 hours on, some much less than that. Also T8 lamps, like you have, degrade quickier than T5 HO. Unfortunately, you can not tell reliably what is lamps UV level without special tool, radiometer, like Solarmeter 6.5 (which is pretty expensive). I have no experience with UV test cards and do not now if they provide accurate readings. Maybe you can find cheap Solarmeter's analog, but the trick is that it should be calibrated to measure indoor UVB (ideally in terms of UVI, not mW) - I haven't seen alternatives yet. With 2-3 hours a day new lamp could last for about one year and you can use new without reflector and then put it on in a 4-6 months. 1-2 hour in a week of natural sun exposure should provide enough UVB and you can simply turn off UVB lamp on "sunbathing" days to let it last even longer.
2. Inner balcony is a good place to take your tortoise for a walk. If you can arrange him some space there - that would be great. E.g. make something like sandbox or planter box with proper substrate, a hide and some plants. You don't have to put substrate over the whole area so people can use the balcony too
3. Let's hope it's not and MBD, or at least it's not serious state of MBD. The changes you plan to do should be enough to prevent MBD development.
4. Smooth floors when wet could be very slippery and tortoise cannot walk normally. It's like walking on ice - you can walk without falling, but it is very different from usual walk.
5. Glad that cuttlefish bone worked. Get another one and see, if tortoise would be interested. If calcium intake is enough they could ignore it for months. If your tortoise would try to eat new cuttlebone too, I would remove it for a week - too much calcium is not good either. And without UVB (sun or lamp) it wouldn't work anyway.

Today I left her in natural light for about 2 hours (not sunlight) and let her exercise and eat during that time. I'll keep doing this for her health afterward.
In the afternoon she was allowed to crawl on a non-slip mat again, but the situation is the same, most of the time she can crawl normally and smoothly, and very rarely her legs are scratching strangely. I will keep watching after that. uvb lights I will replace with new ones as soon as possible.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Natural light (even in shadow), if it is not through the glass - is a great source of UV. Please keep going! And keep us informed, please.

 

[wiery]

Natural light (even in shadow), if it is not through the glass - is a great source of UV. Please keep going! And keep us informed, please.

Thanks, just to finalize, for a 40 high box, about 20cm away from the turtle's back, is it ok to choose the first of the two below? with the reflector in use. (There is another one that is HO)
But the store surprisingly recommended me to use the HO one, which seems to be stronger in promoting the absorption of VD3

 

[zovick]

Thanks, just to finalize, for a 40 high box, about 20cm away from the turtle's back, is it ok to choose the first of the two below? with the reflector in use. (There is another one that is HO)
But the store surprisingly recommended me to use the HO one, which seems to be stronger in promoting the absorption of VD3

Both of the bulbs you pictured are T8 bulbs. Those have proven to be somewhat ineffective. You should try to find T5 bulbs instead and get a 10.0 T5 tube bulb for your tortoise. The T5 bulb is much more effective and reliable than the T8.

The bulbs I use are Reptisun bulbs and the boxes are labeled T5 HO 10.0 UVB if that helps you. Here is a link showing the exact bulbs which I use and the company from which I buy them:

Zoo Med Repti Sun 46" T5 10.0 High Output UVB Bulb for sale

1

www.lllreptile.com

In Hong Kong, you will most likely need to find a different seller, but these are the correct bulbs to use. Arcadia also makes the same type of T5 fluorescent bulb and they are equally good. You might be able to buy the Arcadia brand bulbs more readily than the Reptisun ones in Hong Kong.

 

[wiery]

Both of the bulbs you pictured are T8 bulbs. Those have proven to be somewhat ineffective. You should try to find T5 bulbs instead and get a 10.0 T5 tube bulb for your tortoise. The T5 bulb is much more effective and reliable than the T8.

The bulbs I use are Reptisun bulbs and the boxes are labeled T5 HO 10.0 UVB if that helps you. Here is a link showing the exact bulbs which I use and the company from which I buy them:

Zoo Med Repti Sun 46" T5 10.0 High Output UVB Bulb for sale

1

www.lllreptile.com

In Hong Kong, you will most likely need to find a different seller, but these are the correct bulbs to use. Arcadia also makes the same type of T5 fluorescent bulb and they are equally good. You might be able to buy the Arcadia brand bulbs more readily than the Reptisun ones in Hong Kong.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thanks, just to finalize, for a 40 high box, about 20cm away from the turtle's back, is it ok to choose the first of the two below? with the reflector in use. (There is another one that is HO)
But the store surprisingly recommended me to use the HO one, which seems to be stronger in promoting the absorption of VD3

To choose the lamp and mounting height you need UVI (UV index value) which is not the same as mW/cm2 like on the photos you posted. The very detailed explanation could be found in this post, if want dive deep. For Redfoot we need UVI of 2. And that very roughly translates to 50-60 mWa.
Lamp markings you posted add some confusion:
T8 and T5 HO (high output) are different types of lamps with incompatible fixtures. T5HO last longer and more effective, T8 are cheaper. I've never seen such thing like T8 HO. But 5.0, 10.0 denote UV B ratio, there are UV lamps with higher UV percentage and *maybe* HO means just that.

I agree with Zovick that if you can find and buy Arcadia lamp it would be the best. You will need 7% ShadeDweller T5Pro with reflector. If it's not possible, I would take T8 10.0 and run it without reflector for a few months

 

[wiery]

To choose the lamp and mounting height you need UVI (UV index value) which is not the same as mW/cm2 like on the photos you posted. The very detailed explanation could be found in this post, if want dive deep. For Redfoot we need UVI of 2. And that very roughly translates to 50-60 mWa.
Lamp markings you posted add some confusion:
T8 and T5 HO (high output) are different types of lamps with incompatible fixtures. T5HO last longer and more effective, T8 are cheaper. I've never seen such thing like T8 HO. But 5.0, 10.0 denote UV B ratio, there are UV lamps with higher UV percentage and *maybe* HO means just that.

I agree with Zovick that if you can find and buy Arcadia lamp it would be the best. You will need 7% ShadeDweller T5Pro with reflector. If it's not possible, I would take T8 10.0 and run it without reflector for a few months

Previously I didn't figure out the difference between the t5, and t8 models. Now I understand the exact difference, but my case light slot is a t8 model, fixed, so I can't use the t5 model, and I'll probably use the t8 bulbs temporarily at first. After that change to t5 model.
There is a serious mess in the production of reptilian lamps in my area, Just like the T8 HO that shouldn't exist.(I just learned something.)

Sadly 7% ShadeDweller T5Pro is hard for me to get, so I'm stuck with T8 10.0 for now. What brands can you recommend? for example how about zoomed.

(Also why does the T5 need a reflector and the T8 doesn't, is it because the T8 has a larger diameter and is brighter)

I finally came to the conclusion that no lamp is as safe as sunlight, but at least get one that doesn't have harmful rays just in case.☹️

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Zoomed Reptisun are the good ones, maybe second place after Arcadia. T5 HO lamps in fact are brighter than T8. But Arcadia ShadeDweller series is a special T5 HO lamp for shade loving species and low profile enclosures and it's safe to use it with reflector in low ceiling enclosures.

New lamps have higher UV levels, which fade in a 3 weeks or so to their normal levels and then UV level slowly degrade to zero over 6 months or year. That's why I suggested to use 10.0 lamp without reflector first and add it later to keep UV levels acceptable. For 5.0 and 10.0 T5 HO lamps you should not use reflector at all in such a low enclosure.

Both T5 and T8 are safe for your tortoise shell and its eyes. The hardest part is to get the right type and mounting height. Once it's done you just need to change them timely. Sunlight could be harmful as well if it's too much )

I use this webpage (Link) for calculations of mounting height, lamp types and so. It's obviously for Arcadia lamps, but it's good as a baseline for other lamp brands.

 

[wiery]

Zoomed Reptisun are the good ones, maybe second place after Arcadia. T5 HO lamps in fact are brighter than T8. But Arcadia ShadeDweller series is a special T5 HO lamp for shade loving species and low profile enclosures and it's safe to use it with reflector in low ceiling enclosures.

New lamps have higher UV levels, which fade in a 3 weeks or so to their normal levels and then UV level slowly degrade to zero over 6 months or year. That's why I suggested to use 10.0 lamp without reflector first and add it later to keep UV levels acceptable. For 5.0 and 10.0 T5 HO lamps you should not use reflector at all in such a low enclosure.

Both T5 and T8 are safe for your tortoise shell and its eyes. The hardest part is to get the right type and mounting height. Once it's done you just need to change them timely. Sunlight could be harmful as well if it's too much )

I use this webpage (Link) for calculations of mounting height, lamp types and so. It's obviously for Arcadia lamps, but it's good as a baseline for other lamp brands.

Thank you so much for explaining so many questions in detail, I will use this knowledge to keep my RF better.

 

[Yvonne G]

It looks to me like a female that was interrupted during nest covering.

 

[wiery]

It looks to me like a female that was interrupted during nest covering.

Is that possible? And should I have some fine sand for her to dig in? Also do all turtles lay aseptic eggs on a regular basis as long as they are adults?