Hermanns vs Stars

[voaness]

Hello All,

My name is Jesse. This is my second thread post to the forum, the first was about a baby Sulcata we had rescued, that we are rehabbing until spring/summer before it will make a trek to Texas to be in a nice Sulcata sanctuary (and for those who might ask the question of why aren't we just keeping it, well we dont feel we have the right environment for the giant Tortoise in the long run, we just knew that we needed to help the baby immediately. They are an extremely friendly and engaging tortoise and I wish we had the means to keep it, but alas, we do not, but also ask me again in six months because we may be outside building a secondary house for the sulcata. I kid...I think.) Well due to us eventually rehoming this tortoise, my six year old (and who am I lying to, myself included), realized we want a forever tortoise. I am not new to the turtle world, but it's been a really long time since I have owned one. I am very fastidious in learning for the care of different species, and am confident we can set up the right environment for the right tortoise.

So, we are doing our research into what might be the best reptile pet for our household. We decided that we would like to aim for a smaller tortoise (clearly), where it can live in a built enclosure for the winter and in a safe outside enclosure during the summer days (nights we would bring them back in). Clearly at the top of our list was an Egyptian, and then we had our feelings hurt by both the endangered listing, the price-tag, and the nowhere availability in our state. This then led us to four other subsets, that were more realistic to obtain: Western / Eastern Hermann, Indian Star, and Burmese Star. From reading on the internet (which can be a scary and conflicting place) and quite frankly the limited posts here on this particular tortoise, the Indian Star moved to the bottom of the list, as it seemed rather demanding of temperature needs, prone to respiratory issues, and was also deemed very shy. We love the Stars because they are beautiful, we hear the Hermanns are great because of the personality. Do people have experience owning either an eastern or a western, and thoughts on the two, is the only difference the size of their shell? We read that the Burmese hits both beauty and personality.

So really, we are here asking the forum what their thoughts are on these guys, which are probably going to be wide and varied, but we appreciate everyone's opinions on the matter.

Thank you

 

[Tom]

You are wonderful for going about it this way!

All four of your choices are good ones. Hermanni are a terrific species. Either western or the eastern. The only problem with hermanni, is you have to figure out what you want to do in winter for brumation. You don't have to brumate them, but I think you should, and they will likely want to anyway. For some people this is a deal breaker. For other people, its a nice break in the routine.

Indian stars are a great tortoise, but I prefer tortoises that are more bold, curious and outgoing, so I chose to work with the Burmese star. They are the perfect tortoise for so many people and would work perfectly for your plans and your climate. Indoors in winter, and outdoors in summer. If you build a proper heated night box, they can live outside full time in summer. You just lock them in their box every night, and open the door each morning.

I got this chicken coop from Tractor Supply, and it makes a great outdoor cage for any smaller species. Keeps them safe from all predators.

Here is more info on the platyota:

Introduction To The Burmese Star Tortoise

I've been wanting to do this thread for a long time... This species has become one of my all time favorites, and for good reasons! The purpose of all of my ramblings that follow are primarily intended to showcase how great this species is and why its a better species for most people than most...

tortoiseforum.org

And a care sheet so you can see what you'd need to do to prepare:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Here is the care sheet for the hermanni, so you can compare and contrast:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome.

 

[wellington]

If you want a great started tortoise, go with the Burmese Star and buy it from Tom. It will be started correctly through incubation and until it gets to your door. Tom is also very giving of his knowledge and will help you step by step if you should need it.

 

[voaness]

You rock! That enclosure is so cool and now I’m going to jump down that wormhole! We also have a little urban farm, so when I’m gardening I figured the little dude can come join. Don’t worry our beds are raised so they won’t get to all the goodies. But leaving them out without supervision this enclosure hits the marks. Do you have issues with raccoons or possums at night trying to get into the enclosure? Is the box they are going in something you built from scratch or are they purchasable? How big does it need to be? This may be in some of the links you sent so ignore answering this if it is.

The Burmese is definitely at the top of the list. We also prefer more engaging tortoises and we were concerned that as they became smaller they became less inclined to engage with their human butlers.

I honestly didn’t know that the Hermanni needed to hibernate, but it makes sense for certain types to do this. I saw some people dig huge holes in their yard and bury their turtles below the frost line. I don’t think I’m prepared for this, I would hate to accidentally kill it. So Burmese gets a point on this.

Gonna dive into your links. May be back with more questions.

Oh one that comes to mind, are Burmese or Hermanni ok to be solitary? We don’t currently plan on having more than one

 

[voaness]

Wait…I just saw Wellington’s reply, @Tom you raise Burmese? You do! I just opened the first link. Mind blown. I figured you were only a Sulcata guru. Do you currently have babies available or coming up?

 

[Tom]

Wait…I just saw Wellington’s reply, @Tom you raise Burmese? I figured you were only a Sulcata guru.

I sure do. They are vying for the top spot of all my favorite species. I have 6 adult females and 5 males that produce about 100 babies per year for me. They have been nothing but a joy and have never given me any problems to deal with. Pure fun and enjoyment.

 

[wellington]

Digging a hole to brumate a tortoise is not how it's done correctly. Maybe for native box turtles it could be fine, but not a tortoise that's not native.
Also, tortoises are solitary animals. Pairs don't work. So either one or several, but even then multiple enclosures may be needed. I personally think only one makes a more personable tortoise as your time spent is with just that one. I have multiple, but was lucky to not have them all at once in the beginning.

 

[voaness]

Thank you for your reply! I saw Tom’s link about his Burmese and he made it sound like they are more sociable with others of their kind and didn’t fight. So wanted to make sure they wouldn’t be lonely if by themselves.

 

[voaness]

@Tom Curious about availability and pricing, I DMed you to find out more!

 

[Tom]

Thank you for your reply! I saw Tom’s link about his Burmese and he made it sound like they are more sociable with others of their kind and didn’t fight. So wanted to make sure they wouldn’t be lonely if by themselves.

Any of these species will be perfectly fine by themselves, though I do find the interactions of groups to be enjoyable. No tortoise species should ever be kept as pairs, but the Burmese stars are particularly easy to house in groups since they don't fight even with multiple adult males.

The night boxes have to be built. I tried and tried to use something store bought, dog houses, deck boxes, dogloos, sheds, etc... They just don't work. By the time you modify it enough to work adequately, it would have been cheaper and better to just build one, and the built ones are much more energy efficient too.

 

[voaness]

Any of these species will be perfectly fine by themselves, though I do find the interactions of groups to be enjoyable. No tortoise species should ever be kept as pairs, but the Burmese stars are particularly easy to house in groups since they don't fight even with multiple adult males.

The night boxes have to be built. I tried and tried to use something store bought, dog houses, deck boxes, dogloos, sheds, etc... They just don't work. By the time you modify it enough to work adequately, it would have been cheaper and better to just build one, and the built ones are much more energy efficient too.

Noted about pairs. To be clear then it’s best to own one tortoise or 3+? What happens if we decide after owning a star for awhile that we want want to add more star, at what minimum age can you put them together?

 

[voaness]

Noted about pairs. To be clear then it’s best to own one tortoise or 3+? What happens if we decide after owning a star for awhile that we want want to add more star, at what minimum age can you put them together?

Meaning…can a hatchling be with a 1-2 year old? Can a 2 year old be with a 4 year old? Or will they just bully? Kind of like cats in that they are best to get together as babies?

 

[Tom]

Meaning…can a hatchling be with a 1-2 year old? Can a 2 year old be with a 4 year old? Or will they just bully? Kind of like cats in that they are best to get together as babies?

This is highly debatable. Different people may have had different experiences with this sort of thing, and when you add in all the climates, housing styles ad different species, there will be some exception to every assertion made.

Having said that, me and many keepers who have kept lots of tortoises in different ways over lots of years, have shared some common observations.
1. Stars don't fight. An adult won't attack a baby, not that I've tried this, but that doesn't mean the baby won't be intimidated and scared by a larger animals trudging by or running it over. Best to keep sizes relatively close to one another. The large and older they are the less this matters. Putting a 3000 gram female in with a juvenile 1000 gram male won't hurt a thing. That little male won't be upset at all. Putting a 30 gram baby in with a 100 gram juvenile, might intimidate the baby. I say might. It might also be fine, but its not something I've ever wanted to try.

What you could do is get an enclosure for one now, and if you want more, get a second enclosure for another group of 3 babies. After a year or two, you can put them all together even if the first one is much larger than the others.

2. Raising them as singles can lead to social problems later on for at least some of the more territorial aggressive species. I don't think this would be an issue for a star tortoise, but I haven't tried it either. My intention is to eventually breed all the species I keep, and raising them in groups as babies increases the chances of success later on. In years passed I did raise some tortoises alone, and they all seemed fine. When those individuals were added to groups, it seems to be okay eventually, most of the time. I had one super aggressive female sulcata that was alone from the age of 3 months until about 3 years, and she wanted to fight every other tortoise she saw when I tried to add in some "friends". A large adult male (90 pounds to her 5 pounds at the time) put her in her place one day, and she got along fine with everyone after that point. I wonder if she would have behaved this way if she had been raised as part of a group?

To answer your questions more specifically:
1. I would not put hatchlings with a 1 or 2 year old. It might be oaky with platynota, but it probably wouldn't be okay with most species.
2. Two year old stars would probably be fine with a 4 year old star.
3. I don't think platynota would bully each other at any age or size. That is just not in their nature. Now Russian tortoises, or desert tortoises, or sulcata males... That would be a different story.
4. I do think it is best if they are raised together as babies because of my future plans for them, but I also think they are totally fine alone.

 

[voaness]

So much to think about! I think we might try to go the route of loving one and then seeing about addition. I do like the idea of this little herd running around the garden. In the wild, do these particular ones hang out in groups? I know sulcatas have huge territories, but are stars different? I read on one of the threads a theoretical debate on whether or not stress led to pyramiding and someone was opining that a tortoise being lonely could lead to this stress which could lead to the pyramiding. Projecting or is there some fluff to this?

Also, since you have Burmese, I have seen the threads on pyramiding for this species, it seems that it's a mixed bag even with the best humidity, food, environment intentions, that you could still get some pyramiding with some of them. Do you recommend doing anything extra with this species, like rubbing their shells with oils or anything? Or it is what it is with stars and do your best to not make it worse?

Curious as well about pyramiding, does it continue through the rest of their life, or does it stop at a certain point?

 

[Tom]

So much to think about! I think we might try to go the route of loving one and then seeing about addition. I do like the idea of this little herd running around the garden. In the wild, do these particular ones hang out in groups? I know sulcatas have huge territories, but are stars different? I read on one of the threads a theoretical debate on whether or not stress led to pyramiding and someone was opining that a tortoise being lonely could lead to this stress which could lead to the pyramiding. Projecting or is there some fluff to this?

Also, since you have Burmese, I have seen the threads on pyramiding for this species, it seems that it's a mixed bag even with the best humidity, food, environment intentions, that you could still get some pyramiding with some of them. Do you recommend doing anything extra with this species, like rubbing their shells with oils or anything? Or it is what it is with stars and do your best to not make it worse?

Curious as well about pyramiding, does it continue through the rest of their life, or does it stop at a certain point?

No one knows anything about this species in the wild. They went extinct sometime between 2002 and 2010, and there were hardly any left before that.

I do believe that stress can play a part in pyramiding, based on things I've seen over the years, but the stress is from pair living. I don't think it is stressful or upsetting in any way for a tortoise to live by itself, even the ones you see pictures of in groups in the wild. Tortoises do to get lonely.

Its difficult to raise any species perfectly smooth every time. Some of my stars are smoother than others. I just give it my best effort day after day, year after year and hope for the best.