Hibernation when tortoise is underweight

[Sd2e10]

Hi all!

I’m just messaging to get some general advice really:

Arnie is my 6 y/o Russian Horsefield. He recently had a check-up at the vets who advised he is ‘on the skinny side’ and that I can increase his daily food intake. For reference he has a mix of lambs lettuce, kale, petunias and dandelions daily. 3 days a week I put Nutrobal on his food.

As Arnie is now old enough I’d planned on hibernating him this year but as he’s slightly underweight I wanted some advice as to whether it might be better to keep him awake this time round with a view of hibernating him next year? If I do this will it have any harmful effects? I’m concerned about what food I could give him over the winter too.

Arnie has quite bad pyramiding as he spent his first 2 years in Viv at a garden centre. He’s now in a table that’s over 3 foot and has a UVB heat bulb that measures 30 when temp taken from the top of his shell. He’s active, healthy and happy (as far as I can tell) but I’m just very nervous about the hibernation side of things!

Any advice would be hugely appreciated!

 

[Sd2e10]

Oh I should’ve added that in the Summer months he roams around outside! Except for cold days when he lives in his table!

 

[Tom]

Sounds like you've gotten a lot of the old incorrect care advice from a "reptile expert" or a pet shop. Your food and water bowls need to be changed, and that substrate is literally hazardous. Encouraging a tortoise to eat sandy substrate to satisfy its calcium cravings is a terrible idea. That stuff should be pulled from the market and not sold.

Also, tortoises are grazers. They should be free to eat as much of the correct foods as they want all day every day. Grocery store greens are not the correct foods, but can be improved/amended by mixing in the right stuff.

Vivs are the best way to start babies. They also make it easier to house adults, as long as they are large enough.

Read this for the current and correct care info, and then feel free to come back with all your questions: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-best-way-to-raise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/

 

[Sd2e10]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the reply.

I do have a few follow up questions/points if that’s OK?

- I do put Nutrobal on Arnie’s food and the food I give him is in-line with what you’ve said in your link so I’m confused about your point about food needing to be changed. Shop bought he has kale but the dandelions, petunias and lambs lettuce are grown from my garden (and dusted with Nutrobal 3 times a week).

- The substrate he’s on has never been eaten by him as he has a calcium block in the enclosure too. I thought Russian Horsefields needed a lower humidity so this substrate was perfect so long as I spritzed it three times a week?

- the water/feeding bowls don’t see to cause him any harm and he uses them both as you’d expect. I’m happy to change to terracotta dishes but I’m just unsure how they’re death traps?

I’m very very very keen to add that I really do appreciate the advice and I’m not being defensive with the above it’s just a lot of the stuff I’ve done is from information on tortoise forums and I seem to be going around in circles!

Thank you for your time

 

[Tom]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the reply.

I do have a few follow up questions/points if that’s OK?

- I do put Nutrobal on Arnie’s food and the food I give him is in-line with what you’ve said in your link so I’m confused about your point about food needing to be changed. Shop bought he has kale but the dandelions, petunias and lambs lettuce are grown from my garden (and dusted with Nutrobal 3 times a week).

- The substrate he’s on has never been eaten by him as he has a calcium block in the enclosure too. I thought Russian Horsefields needed a lower humidity so this substrate was perfect so long as I spritzed it three times a week?

- the water/feeding bowls don’t see to cause him any harm and he uses them both as you’d expect. I’m happy to change to terracotta dishes but I’m just unsure how they’re death traps?

I’m very very very keen to add that I really do appreciate the advice and I’m not being defensive with the above it’s just a lot of the stuff I’ve done is from information on tortoise forums and I seem to be going around in circles!

Thank you for your time

Question are not okay. Questions are invited and welcomed! We are all here to talk tortoises!

I'll hit your questions one at a time:

• Diet. They need a huge variety, and they need mostly broadleaf weeds. This give them fiber, calcium, and a wide variety of nutrients. You listed four items and two of them are from the grocery store. All of those items are good food items, but where are the mulberry leaves, grape leaves, an assortment of weeds other than dandelion, other flowers, etc...? The nutrobal helps with calcium, but it isn't helping with the lack of fiber and variety. I would not feed kale or lambs lettuce often. Look for endive, escarole, arugula, cilantro, and more if you must use grocery store foods. If you must use grocery store foods, you'll need to amend them with something that adds fiber and variety. I think in the UK you can use "Komodo" brand pellets, or you can soak ZooMed pellets and mix those in to your daily greens. You can get horse feeding pellets and soak those to mix in if needed. The point is: MUCH more variety, and foods high in fiber.
• No one can possibly know if their tortoise has even nibbled on the substrate. Who knows what they do when we are not watching? Even if you are correct, there is nothing to stop him from eating a mouthful later today or tomorrow or the next day... The point is: Don't have him living on something that can kill him, and don't encourage him to eat the substrate that can kill him by putting enticing bits of calcium in it. Sand should never be used as substrate under a tortoise. Nor should soil.
• Those ZooMed calcium blocks are useless. I know of no tortoise ever that has touched one. And even if it did, that doesn't mean to won't also eat the calcium bits in the substrate.
• Humidity: Its true that Russians come from an area that is reasonably dry for most of the year, but first, let's consider where those temperature and humidity sensors are located in comparison to where tortoises are actually living. The sensors are two meters high, out in the open, away from any sort of cover or vegetation. This is not tortoise habitat. The tortoises seek out hiding areas deep in the shrubbery and vegetation. The dig into the root ball areas and find or create areas of higher humidity. We can argue about what each of us thinks happens in the wild all day, but that goes nowhere, so let's instead look at the main point: What works in captivity? Rather than speculate about the wild we have thousands of examples of what works and what doesn't right in front of our eyes daily. I've done many side-by-side growth and health experiments over the last 10 years. We could have infinite discussion about all the details, but the main take away is this: ALL tortoises of all species from everywhere in the world, benefit and thrive with good hydration. Maintaining damp substrate with moderate humidity is one way to help keep them hydrated. Spraying the surface of the substrate does little or nothing to aid with humidity. For decades we have all been keeping tortoises much too dry. Can they survive it? In many cases, yes they can. Is that good for them? No. No its not. They are much healthier when kept in an environment with moderate humidity, and the ability to dig into deep damp substrate and create their own little microclimate pockets of higher humidity.
• Bowls: I've tried to think of ways to explain the concept of a rigid shelled animal trying to overcome bowls with vertical sides. The best analogy I can think of is a Hot Wheels car. Do you have those there? Try to "drive" your car into the dish ao that the front bumper touches the water's surface. All four wheels must remain touching the ground. See what happens? Further, put your car in the water bowl, and drive it out. See what happens when the front bumper contact the vertical side? Now do the same things with a terra cotta saucer sunk into the substrate. See the physics involved here? The "tortoise death traps" comment is referring to the ramped style water bowls that so many pet shops like to sell. Yours aren't as bad as those, but still not good.
• Here at TFO we have a unique community of beginners al the way through top experts. "The Godfather" himself posts here and shares his knowledge some of time for goodness sake. We have trained professional scientists, biologists, doctors, and people like me who have been keeping chelonians since the 70s and experimenting with all the parameters of housing, feeding, and breeding tortoises to test old theories, discover new and better ways of doing things, and correcting obvious problems and discrepancies of the past. Tortoises have been kept all wrong for decades. Most pet shops, vets, breeders, and "experts" are still parroting and promoting this same old wrong info. They just don't know what they don't know. The people who argue the hardest with this new and better care info, are usually the people who have been doing it the longest, have never tried the new ways, and have simply learned to accept the failures of the past. I used to be one of those "failers". I, and several other people here chose not to accept those failures and instead undertook a long term campaign of experimentation and discovery to find out WHY these old methods didn't work, and what DOES work. People who find this site get the benefit of all those years of trial and error without having to learn it all the hard way as I, and so many others have. This is what the majority of the info you find from other sites and people will all be more similar, and the info here is so conflicting and different. Most of the info you find is the old wrong way that has been parroted and promoted for decades. The info you get here will contradict most of that old wrong info because we've taken the time to figure out better ways and avoid the pitfalls of the old ways.

The choice of who to listen to is yours. If you keep tortoises long enough, you will learn what I have learned and eventually see why I say the things I say.

 

[JoesMum]

Tom has given you sound advice. What he doesn’t kniw about this species isn’t worth knowing

 

[Sd2e10]

Hi Tom,

I cannot thank you enough for the time taken to answer my questions! I really do appreciate it it’s a bit overwhelming in all honesty as a lot of it contradicts what I’ve been told in the past but what I’m doing obviously isn’t working as Arnie’s pyramiding doesn’t seem to be slowing down!

I’ve sifted through and will make the below changes imminently:

1) I plan to order this and will change his bedding as soon as it arrives. Will I need to spray this still or is it a completely redundant act on all bedding types? https://www.reptiles.swelluk.com/swell-premium-orchid-bark-fine/

2) I will re-introduce pellets into Arnie’s diet. I was previously hounded for these being the equivalent of ‘junk food’ for a tortoise so actually took them out his diet recently (lol). I will also introduce more variety - I do have some seeds from ‘shelled warriors’ that I’ve been growing but I’m concerned they won’t last through Winter.

3) I’ll take out the dishes and change them to 2 x terracota dishes. Does the water one need to be big enough to bathe in or is it OK not to be if I’m bathing Arnie daily anyway?

4) I’ve been told that I need more ‘things’ in Arnie’s table to keep him occupied like pebbles/slate/a wooden bridge. I plan to add these but obviously won’t if you don’t think it’s necessary! He has two air plants in his table that he likes to try and hide in.

5) If I take the calcium block out shall I put a cuttle fish in instead? Since working from home I’ve been able to watch him all day as my desk overlooks his table (which is a blessing and a curse as he’s such a distraction - a welcome one though of course)! Like I said he’s not eaten his subtrate whilst I’ve been watching him daily but there’s till a chance so I will 100% change this.

Thank you again and thank you Joe’s Mum for the input! I will put up new photos once I’ve made the changes

 

[JoesMum]

Hi Tom,

I cannot thank you enough for the time taken to answer my questions! I really do appreciate it it’s a bit overwhelming in all honesty as a lot of it contradicts what I’ve been told in the past but what I’m doing obviously isn’t working as Arnie’s pyramiding doesn’t seem to be slowing down!

I’ve sifted through and will make the below changes imminently:

1) I plan to order this and will change his bedding as soon as it arrives. Will I need to spray this still or is it a completely redundant act on all bedding types? https://www.reptiles.swelluk.com/swell-premium-orchid-bark-fine/

2) I will re-introduce pellets into Arnie’s diet. I was previously hounded for these being the equivalent of ‘junk food’ for a tortoise so actually took them out his diet recently (lol). I will also introduce more variety - I do have some seeds from ‘shelled warriors’ that I’ve been growing but I’m concerned they won’t last through Winter.

All good. Few of us manage without pellets when the weeds are thin on the ground. In the spring phase the pellets out and the weeds in. The dandelions are early to show

3) I’ll take out the dishes and change them to 2 x terracota dishes. Does the water one need to be big enough to bathe in or is it OK not to be if I’m bathing Arnie daily anyway?

Ideally the water dish is large enough for your tort to self soak

4) I’ve been told that I need more ‘things’ in Arnie’s table to keep him occupied like pebbles/slate/a wooden bridge. I plan to add these but obviously won’t if you don’t think it’s necessary! He has two air plants in his table that he likes to try and hide in.

Who told you? Enrichment is nonsense in this sense.

Plenty of weeds. An enclosure that has lines of sight broken up be plants and decor seems bigger to a tort. Things to hide under. Stones to walk over keep claws in shape, but they’re not enrichment.

5) If I take the calcium block out shall I put a cuttle fish in instead? Since working from home I’ve been able to watch him all day as my desk overlooks his table (which is a blessing and a curse as he’s such a distraction - a welcome one though of course)! Like I said he’s not eaten his subtrate whilst I’ve been watching him daily but there’s till a chance so I will 100% change this.

Get the substrate right. Stick a cuttlebone in

Trust Tom

 

[Sd2e10]

Thanks Joesmum and Tom!

Last and final question from me (the original one) shall I avoid hibernating this year until he’s around the correct weight for his size and age?

Thank you again

 

[Tom]

1) I plan to order this and will change his bedding as soon as it arrives. Will I need to spray this still or is it a completely redundant act on all bedding types? https://www.reptiles.swelluk.com/swell-premium-orchid-bark-fine/

2) I will re-introduce pellets into Arnie’s diet. I was previously hounded for these being the equivalent of ‘junk food’ for a tortoise so actually took them out his diet recently (lol). I will also introduce more variety - I do have some seeds from ‘shelled warriors’ that I’ve been growing but I’m concerned they won’t last through Winter.

3) I’ll take out the dishes and change them to 2 x terracota dishes. Does the water one need to be big enough to bathe in or is it OK not to be if I’m bathing Arnie daily anyway?

4) I’ve been told that I need more ‘things’ in Arnie’s table to keep him occupied like pebbles/slate/a wooden bridge. I plan to add these but obviously won’t if you don’t think it’s necessary! He has two air plants in his table that he likes to try and hide in.

5) If I take the calcium block out shall I put a cuttle fish in instead? Since working from home I’ve been able to watch him all day as my desk overlooks his table (which is a blessing and a curse as he’s such a distraction - a welcome one though of course)! Like I said he’s not eaten his subtrate whilst I’ve been watching him daily but there’s till a chance so I will 100% change this.

1. I don't know that brand and it looks a little different. Make sure it is 100% fir bark.
2. There are many ways to do this. ZooMed sells a flower topper that is a good mix in, and they also sell a Grassland pellet and forest pellet. All of these are good. Adding soaked horse pellets works too. More variety from the grocery store too.
3. I prefer to have a large enough water saucer for the tortoise to get into, but this is not "necessary" with frequent soaks.
4. More cover and more furniture is good, but his enclosure is already so small. Ideally, you'd make a 4x8 foot indoor enclosure and add logs, hides, plants and rocks to that.
5. Cuttlebone works. Many tortoise will eat it right away. Some tortoises will ignore it for months, and then eat it all of a sudden. Doesn't hurt to have it in there.

Glad my info was helpful

 

[Tom]

Thanks Joesmum and Tom!

Last and final question from me (the original one) shall I avoid hibernating this year until he’s around the correct weight for his size and age?

Thank you again

I hope this isn't your last question!

This is debatable. If there is any question about his fitness or health, I'd say best to wait a year. This is a judgment call, and I would judge it by feel if this were my tortoise. You do not "have" to hibernate them, so its fine to skip it to be on the safe side. I do prefer to hibernate in most cases, but not if there is some risk to the animals life for one reason or another.

 

[Sd2e10]

Hi Tom,

Thank you! My deliveries are arriving today and I’ve got a trip to the garden centre planned as soon as I finish work! There’s also a reptile shop round the corner from me that I’ve previously bought the dried wild flowers you’ve mentioned from so I’ll grab those and pellets! It’s so nice to speak with someone who’s really willing to help and give sound advice. I honestly felt so rotten when I was told the pellets are junk food so it’s great to know that they actually are OK alongside other items in a varied diet. I am sorry to you though and it’s likely that any questions I have in the future will come your way haha!

I am going to make Arnie a bigger enclosure but due to personal reasons this hasn’t happened quite yet but watch this space because as soon as I can, I will! He’s loved his outdoor time this Summer (apart from a close encounter with a magpie back in June)!

Thank you again for kindly taking the time to help me sift through all the right and wrongs I’ve been doing!
Sam