HIGHER PRICING

[Yvonne G]

What is " less likely "

I think she meant that if a person spends more money for the animal they would be LESS LIKELY to abuse it.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

I think she meant that if a person spends more money for the animal they would be LESS LIKELY to abuse it.

But Rutibegga and I agree that's not true .

 

[Greg T]

I will sell my babies to forum members at a reduced price because I know they are interested and educated on proper care. If I have to advertise on Craigslist, I raise my price considerably and question people about proper care. I also figure if they are willing to put up some good money to buy a baby, they should take better care of it. That does seem to weed out the people looking for disposable pets.

 

[keepergale]

I have thought about posting that "beginners should buy Radiated and Spider tortoises since we never see posts of them sick and dying".

 

[Rutibegga]

But Rutibegga and I agree that's not true .

I think there's a subset of the population for whom that's not true, at least. I don't think an across the board statement can be made either way. I DO feel that lower pricing encourages more people who are unprepared/uninformed to consider purchasing an animal they're not equipped to care for, for sure. Among those people, you'll get a group that cares deeply about their pet and does their best, and you'll get a group for whom the pet was a novelty and the cost/trouble of care isn't worth it to them.

 

[Jacqui]

Good, the more people spend on one the less likely they will be to mistreat or abandon it.

Sadly this is just not true at all.

 

[Alaskamike]

There is a correlation between what something costs you - whether in time, effort or $, and how people value and treat something. Of course their are always exceptions.

Give your kids everything without requiring responsibility , chores, something and the results are almost inevitable. There is a difference between being born into $ , and working hard to get it.

Living things are a bit different because some people have little empathy or care. So those that do care will exert great effort to provide great care simply because the animal is worth it. Deserves it as a living innocent thing.

But.... We are all a bit motivated to protect our investments of time, $, and effort to some extent

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Good, the more people spend on one the less likely they will be to mistreat or abandon it.

I wish this was true. I have seen to many times where the underlying idea of how this should make sense, does not.

To the larger issue, I noticed our interest/hobby has been flooded with many speculators and those that trade on their knowledge of the 'market' and the animals have become a secondary interest. I posted a thread about flippers with a small level of thread participation but the P/IM both here and in alternate venues got very emotional. Flippers are now here in the chelonian world of commerce.

Much denial goes along with it as well. I called one seller on 'fauna' out on their flipping. I don't know if that helped or hurt the future owner of the animals involved.

Greg, we see that you are a breeder and so buying from you will always be the straight arrow deal without regard to price. Then there are the deal shoppers with only the higher end they can sell to, not how they will breed them.

The more buyers, even with a growing supply, will shift, not just increase demand to the positive. More owners will also mean more regulation, and associated BS.

 

[Rutibegga]

To the larger issue, I noticed our interest/hobby has been flooded with many speculators and those that trade on their knowledge of the 'market' and the animals have become a secondary interest. I posted a thread about flippers with a small level of thread participation but the P/IM both here and in alternate venues got very emotional. Flippers are now here in the chelonian world of commerce.

These are people obtaining animals wholesale or from CL ads, then turning them around for profit, correct? And this is a big problem in the reptile trade? Is there that much profit to be made? What is the buyer market?

I guess I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this because I

1. Am coming into this from the perspective of a pet owner, not a collector or breeder
2. Imagine that those running breeding programs care more about the origin of their animals than a flipper would be able to document
3. See about a gazillion CL ads posted by people looking to re home their reptiles, leading me to believe the supply outpaces the demand for animals once they're not cute little hatchlings

Please, send me deeper down this rabbit hole.

 

[teresaf]

There is a correlation between what something costs you - whether in time, effort or $, and how people value and treat something. Of course their are always exceptions.

Give your kids everything without requiring responsibility , chores, something and the results are almost inevitable. There is a difference between being born into $ , and working hard to get it.

Living things are a bit different because some people have little empathy or care. So those that do care will exert great effort to provide great care simply because the animal is worth it. Deserves it as a living innocent thing.

But.... We are all a bit motivated to protect our investments of time, $, and effort to some extent

I totally agree usually though when people spend a lot of money on something they treat It a little bit better than they would if they spent $20. ehh, it's only $20, what the heck, throw it out and get a new one....

 

[teresaf]

Sadly this is just not true at all.

I see it the proof of my statement every time I walk into an animal shelter. very rarely do I see a purebred dog. I see a lot of mUtts (and pitbulls). there are exceptions of course. once in a while youll see a Chihuahua or a Poodle but they are a dime a dozen anymore nowadays to. I can't tell you the last time I saw an English Mastiff or English bulldog in a shelter. those are $2000 dogs. nobody's stupid enough to dump one of them. They'll sell it to somebody who wants it and can take care of it if nothing else So they can recoup some of their investment. and again I said less likely there's always going to be exceptions out there

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

These are people obtaining animals wholesale or from CL ads, then turning them around for profit, correct? And this is a big problem in the reptile trade? Is there that much profit to be made? What is the buyer market?

I guess I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this because I

1. Am coming into this from the perspective of a pet owner, not a collector or breeder
2. Imagine that those running breeding programs care more about the origin of their animals than a flipper would be able to document
3. See about a gazillion CL ads posted by people looking to re home their reptiles, leading me to believe the supply outpaces the demand for animals once they're not cute little hatchlings

Please, send me deeper down this rabbit hole.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/flippers-turtle-hound-dogs.124432/ just for a few examples. I guess you have become the model of what you are not sure even exists. A person who did not look very far for the information they sought. I described the thread about flippers right here on TFO in this thread, and now brought it into this/Greg's thread, and this would have answered your questions. That is what flippers do, they exploit their knowledge relative to yours. That in itself is not a bad thing, no one is an expert about everything, we all rely on 'trusting' what we are told. The dealio, IMO, is the falsehoods and lack of regard about and for the animals involved.

In the industry that has really been damaged by flippers, real estate, is all the crap workmanship and potential life threatening work done on houses people buy, to have a home for themselves and their family. For those structures refurbished and brought up to code, hey that's a good thing IMO. They cost more than the fixer upper, but the work has been done.

So unlike houses/homes if Greg found an adult female Aldabra with a fabricated history to purposefully hide an an incurable illness ((cryptosporidea), and after a quarantine it never shed and is introduced to his heard and reproduction takes a dive, well, that is extremely not good. Odds are this won't happen. But the same animal with a fully disclosed history would inform Greg that even for free she might not be worth the hassle. Sorry Greg, I just wanted to bring this back to you as you are the OP.

FWIW, I in fact know of Galops out there that are positive for crypto, just waiting to see how they move about the country. Yeah, all this is real.

 

[Rutibegga]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/flippers-turtle-hound-dogs.124432/ just for a few examples. I guess you have become the model of what you are not sure even exists. A person who did not look very far for the information they sought. I described the thread about flippers right here on TFO in this thread, and now brought it into this/Greg's thread, and this would have answered your questions. That is what flippers do, they exploit their knowledge relative to yours. That in itself is not a bad thing, no one is an expert about everything, we all rely on 'trusting' what we are told. The dealio, IMO, is the falsehoods and lack of regard about and for the animals involved.

In the industry that has really been damaged by flippers, real estate, is all the crap workmanship and potential life threatening work done on houses people buy, to have a home for themselves and their family. For those structures refurbished and brought up to code, hey that's a good thing IMO. They cost more than the fixer upper, but the work has been done.

So unlike houses/homes if Greg found an adult female Aldabra with a fabricated history to purposefully hide an an incurable illness ((cryptosporidea), and after a quarantine it never shed and is introduced to his heard and reproduction takes a dive, well, that is extremely not good. Odds are this won't happen. But the same animal with a fully disclosed history would inform Greg that even for free she might not be worth the hassle. Sorry Greg, I just wanted to bring this back to you as you are the OP.

FWIW, I in fact know of Galops out there that are positive for crypto, just waiting to see how they move about the country. Yeah, all this is real.

I had read that thread, but I admit to getting a bit lost in the back and forth and dropping it. So the issue IS the history and health concerns less so than the profit, or it is both. And the bad taste left in the mouths of those who witness or are exploited by it. Gotcha. But it's not animals who are in need of better care that are necessarily being bought and sold (those needing re homing via CL ads), it's those more sought after and rare. Ok. Digested this time, thanks.

 

[Rutibegga]

I see it the proof of my statement every time I walk into an animal shelter. very rarely do I see a purebred dog. I see a lot of mUtts (and pitbulls). there are exceptions of course. once in a while youll see a Chihuahua or a Poodle but they are a dime a dozen anymore nowadays to. I can't tell you the last time I saw an English Mastiff or English bulldog in a shelter. those are $2000 dogs. nobody's stupid enough to dump one of them. They'll sell it to somebody who wants it and can take care of it if nothing else So they can recoup some of their investment. and again I said less likely there's always going to be exceptions out there

Is isn't necessarily true. The shelter I work with will immediately contact breed rescue when a purebred comes in, so those dogs never stay in the shelter for more than 24 hours. Pit bulls, mastiffs, and mutts do. They intake tons of "purebred" doodles currently, as well as chihuahuas, but those dogs are whisked away quickly.

Though I do agree that people who have purebred animals they don't want are more likely to try to sell them on CL. My friend has two Boston Terriers and an American Hairless she got from CL.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

As I see it Greg asked about price, yeah? One driver in price is an increase in demand and/or a shift in demand, they are somewhat different things but both can or tend to drive price up. One driver in the increase and or shift in demand is the nuance that flippers bring. I don't know what to tell you about dogs relative to this matter. I know for certainty that tortoise people are indeed cruising venues like CL and buying low just to sell high. I see it as do several other people. There is some little bit of pyramid scheme going on as well, much like has happened with other types of animals in that breeding and selling can be fun, and done well profitable. But tortoises are slow, so the CL buy and price increase and sell revolves around adults animals where the old owner acquired many years ago, maybe decades, and now has had a change in life so want to sell, and they just pull a number out of the air based on what they think, sometimes crazy high sometimes crazy low. This was even documented here on TFO with a very long term Forsten's tortoise and a zombensis hingeback. In those cases the animal was openly flipped (sorta) and ended up with people who interest is purported as breeding. As for money, it's worth it to you or not as the buyer, as the flipper the story/history can create or destroy value. So it can be a monetary gain or a "favor bank" gain when you flip. For the end buyer, value is whatever the buyer decides.

 

[Jacqui]

Is isn't necessarily true. The shelter I work with will immediately contact breed rescue when a purebred comes in, so those dogs never stay in the shelter for more than 24 hours. Pit bulls, mastiffs, and mutts do. They intake tons of "purebred" doodles currently, as well as chihuahuas, but those dogs are whisked away quickly.

Though I do agree that people who have purebred animals they don't want are more likely to try to sell them on CL. My friend has two Boston Terriers and an American Hairless she got from CL.

Exactly! Also is true with equines.

 

[Jacqui]

I see it the proof of my statement every time I walk into an animal shelter. very rarely do I see a purebred dog. I see a lot of mUtts (and pitbulls). there are exceptions of course. once in a while youll see a Chihuahua or a Poodle but they are a dime a dozen anymore nowadays to. I can't tell you the last time I saw an English Mastiff or English bulldog in a shelter. those are $2000 dogs. nobody's stupid enough to dump one of them. They'll sell it to somebody who wants it and can take care of it if nothing else So they can recoup some of their investment. and again I said less likely there's always going to be exceptions out there

I fondly recall an English Springer I used in obedience and conformation many years back. He and his entire liter were brought to the HS shelter I worked in. The good animals are flipped very fast. Horses are costly too and yet you see them dumped too. We are a disposable culture.

 

[jeffjeff]

I don't think it's as much to do with the cost of something as it is the amount of money some one has available. If your one of the lucky people with large amounts of disposable income then cost don't really come in to it. I think saying the harder someone has to work for something the more likely they are to take better take care of it would be more accurate. unfortunately its not always true either.

 

[keepergale]

I fondly recall an English Springer I used in obedience and conformation many years back. He and his entire liter were brought to the HS shelter I worked in. The good animals are flipped very fast. Horses are costly too and yet you see them dumped too. We are a disposable culture.

While I agree with what you say I think the "horse dumping" has to do with high cost upkeep and the unforeseen labor involved.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I don't think it's as much to do with the cost of something as it is the amount of money some one has available. If your one of the lucky people with large amounts of disposable income then cost don't really come in to it. I think saying the harder someone has to work for something the more likely they are to take better take care of it would be more accurate. unfortunately its not always true either.

That is an elegant summation of the $$ versus value matter.