Humidity

[Meggy500]

I am struggling to get the humidity levels in the 80s. I got a reptifogger yesterday but it's still not bumping the guages up even though it looks way more humid in there and the glass is all wet. One is reading 76 and the other is reading 65. I have a hatchling cherry head. (I am building a tortoise table soon)

 

[Meggy500]

Forgot to add I have plastic wrap on the top so the humidity cant escape right away. Just not where the uvb and che is.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Looks pretty humid in there. Are you sure your gauges are accurate? Where are they placed.

It sure doesnt look dry...always a good start!

Good luck.

 

[Cheryl Hills]

I don’t think the gauges you are using are accurate.

 

[DanB]

I have a problem with the train of thought to keep the humidity at 80% all the time, there is no place on earth, unless you live under the spray of a waterfall where the humidity will always be the same. Now an average is much better. Keeping the humidity at an average of 80% is much more likely.

 

[Markw84]

I have a problem with the train of thought to keep the humidity at 80% all the time, there is no place on earth, unless you live under the spray of a waterfall where the humidity will always be the same. Now an average is much better. Keeping the humidity at an average of 80% is much more likely.

Under a plant pushed against the root ball. Deep under banana leaves laying on the ground. Dug in the mud in leaf litter. That is where baby tortoises spend over 95% of their time. Humidity there is always 100%! (When someone says they've seen a baby tortoise in its natural habitat and it was out and about - they are seeing one of the ones that won't make it.)

 

[DanB]

Direct contact with wet ground is not Humidity, I fix weather equipment for a living, I understand how humidity is calculated and measured. Testing the air is not going to be the same as testing the moisture contest of the soil.

 

[Yvonne G]

Direct contact with wet ground is not Humidity, I fix weather equipment for a living, I understand how humidity is calculated and measured. Testing the air is not going to be the same as testing the moisture contest of the soil.

You take into account the moisture on the plants contributing to making the air in such a small space (under the plant) more humid. I think transpiration also makes a difference.

 

[Yvonne G]

I am struggling to get the humidity levels in the 80s. I got a reptifogger yesterday but it's still not bumping the guages up even though it looks way more humid in there and the glass is all wet. One is reading 76 and the other is reading 65. I have a hatchling cherry head. (I am building a tortoise table soon) View attachment 260922

What you see on the glass is merely a reflection of the warm air inside hitting the cold air outside the glass. This causes the moisture on the glass, not how humid it is inside.

 

[Markw84]

Direct contact with wet ground is not Humidity, I fix weather equipment for a living, I understand how humidity is calculated and measured. Testing the air is not going to be the same as testing the moisture contest of the soil.

Perhaps you should test the air in those conditions. I have. Here is the results of a sensor placed in a favorite hiding spot in one of my outdoor locations. the sensor is off the ground but under the plant where the tortoise likes to stay. Also no direct contact with the plant and sensor. IN an open spot under the plant. Shows both weather style location in my backyard over the data from the sensor under the tuft.



Even indoors in my enclosures, there is a big difference between the area under the plants and more in the open, exposed to the lights. The area under the plants never dries out and the area is much more humid...

 

[Yvonne G]

Perhaps you should test the air in those conditions. I have. Here is the results of a sensor placed in a favorite hiding spot in one of my outdoor locations. the sensor is off the ground but under the plant where the tortoise likes to stay. Also no direct contact with the plant and sensor. IN an open spot under the plant. Shows both weather style location in my backyard over the data from the sensor under the tuft.

View attachment 261795

Even indoors in my enclosures, there is a big difference between the area under the plants and more in the open, exposed to the lights. The area under the plants never dries out and the area is much more humid...

View attachment 261796

Interesting that the humidity is directly opposite the air temperature.

 

[DanB]

I agree the area under a plant will be more humid due to the moisture evaporating from the soil and plants, but one thing you wont have in a enclosed habitat that you will have in the wild is the same type of air flow. High pressure, low pressure, down drafts, updrafts etc... will also affect humidity. Put your meter outside under a plant and see what happens. Have you ever seen dew inside your house?

I'm not saying you don't need high humidity, I'm saying you need an average of high humidity.

 

[DanB]

Interesting that the humidity is directly opposite the air temperature.

Relative humidity is the ratio (expressed as a percentage) of the amount of moisture actually in the air to the maximum amount that can be present at that temperature. ... Because warm air can hold more water vapor than cool air, relative humidity falls when the temperature rises if no moisture is added to the air

 

[Markw84]

I agree the area under a plant will be more humid due to the moisture evaporating from the soil and plants, but one thing you wont have in a enclosed habitat that you will have in the wild is the same type of air flow. High pressure, low pressure, down drafts, updrafts etc... will also affect humidity. Put your meter outside under a plant and see what happens. Have you ever seen dew inside your house?

I'm not saying you don't need high humidity, I'm saying you need an average of high humidity.

The written word in posts does not convey attitude well. Just to clarify - I am enjoying the discussion and feel it is an important topic.

The graph above is outside under a plant. My point is that where young tortoises live is under cover. protected from down drafts, updrafts.

I believe a lot of the problems encountered is because of "average humidity" I believe to get the best growth possible, this needs to be avoided. It is those periods of exposure to lower humidity and desiccating lights both in our enclosures and outside, that leads to mild pyramiding despite our gauges telling us the average humidity is fine. My point is that in the wild baby tortoise need to find a way to protect themselves from drying conditions especially their first few years. A tortoise shell is quite different in strength and what is metabolically happening when very young. We feel that just because a tortoise looks "just like a miniature adult" they do not have a fragile stage in need of special care to survive. With no parental care, they must find this on their own. I am not talking about predator protection. I am talking about the need to protect their fragile, still developing shells. I believe they do this by finding virtual 100% humidity or dew point conditions. This allows the shell to remain hydrated and not desiccate while forming its first few years. We alter their behaviors considerably in captivity. They quickly become bolder and remain in the open much more. Often, proper cover is not even provided by most keepers, so they adapt to staying in conditions they would never choose in the wild. Why I chose to carry on this discussion further is exactly that I believe "average humidity" is not enough. Their shells will grow differently when exposed to desiccating conditions. I believe it is not very much lower humidity that will start to cause this.

 

[DanB]

Its nice when you can discuss different opinions without getting all bent out of shape. Thank you for that.

What I do with mine is this. I have a dry side and a humid side to my enclosure. His hide is in the humid side with a very small opening, ( I enlarge opening as he gets bigger) This is the most humid part of the entire enclosure. This way he can self regulate as he would in the wild. I have a ceiling fan on in his room as well so he can get air flow. Living in South Florida helps a lot due to our high humidity. During what we call winter LOL I do have to spend more time keeping the humid side humid but most of the year its just fine with very little misting required. I see a lot of people having problems with shell rot and mold growing in there enclosure and I think its because they have it way to humid in the entire enclosure.

 

[TammyJ]

The written word in posts does not convey attitude well. Just to clarify - I am enjoying the discussion and feel it is an important topic.

The graph above is outside under a plant. My point is that where young tortoises live is under cover. protected from down drafts, updrafts.

I believe a lot of the problems encountered is because of "average humidity" I believe to get the best growth possible, this needs to be avoided. It is those periods of exposure to lower humidity and desiccating lights both in our enclosures and outside, that leads to mild pyramiding despite our gauges telling us the average humidity is fine. My point is that in the wild baby tortoise need to find a way to protect themselves from drying conditions especially their first few years. A tortoise shell is quite different in strength and what is metabolically happening when very young. We feel that just because a tortoise looks "just like a miniature adult" they do not have a fragile stage in need of special care to survive. With no parental care, they must find this on their own. I am not talking about predator protection. I am talking about the need to protect their fragile, still developing shells. I believe they do this by finding virtual 100% humidity or dew point conditions. This allows the shell to remain hydrated and not desiccate while forming its first few years. We alter their behaviors considerably in captivity. They quickly become bolder and remain in the open much more. Often, proper cover is not even provided by most keepers, so they adapt to staying in conditions they would never choose in the wild. Why I chose to carry on this discussion further is exactly that I believe "average humidity" is not enough. Their shells will grow differently when exposed to desiccating conditions. I believe it is not very much lower humidity that will start to cause this.

And when the babies find that 100% humidity in the wild, they are perhaps mainly seeking to hide from predators by going under vegetation and staying there!

 

[Markw84]

Interesting that the humidity is directly opposite the air temperature.

Exactly. As @DanB points out so well, it is "relative" humidity that we all measure. Many weather reports in my area here are now using dew point as opposed to just relative humidity for better clarification. The humidity in our tortoise enclosure can change quite dramatically as temperature changes. We do mitigate that considerable by keeping the substrate wet and allowing for the air to take up more moisture as the temperature rises and the air has more capacity. So some who see their enclosures as humid, but does not have available moisture in the enclosure with plants and moist substrate, would be surprised as the temperature rises how much the humidity drops.

We see condensation on the glass of an enclosure as the glass is closer to room temperature and the enclosure inside may be 15° - 20° warmer. The air can hold much more water vapor at 85° than 65°. To have our enclosure at 85° and 85% RH the dew point would only be at 80°. So just cooling the air to 80° will cause condensation. The glass is cooler than 80° from the room temperature. That is also why my outside tortoises will come into their heated night boxes on an evening when the outside temperature has dropped to under 70° along with their shell temperature. The go into the night box which is 84° and +80%. Their shell gets wet!!

So when we check our enclosures in the morning, we see our gauges telling us the enclosure is 80° and humidity is at 80%. The dew point would be at 73°. So our heat goes up in our enclosure as the lights heat it and it gets to 90°. With no additional water uptake from a moist substrate, that dew point of 73° with the temp now at 90° gives us a relative humidity of only 57%. Same amount of water vapor in the air, but 57% vs 80%.

 

[Markw84]

As an interesting consideration to all this...

During the growing season for young tortoises in their native ranges, the humidity is quite high and the air temperature during the day is considerable higher than the ground temperature and the temperature a hiding tortoise pressed against the ground. So we have a young tortoise whose body temperature is at an optimal 85° that has been hiding under some leaves, now comes out briefly to feed. The air temperature is 100° and the relative humidity is 80%. As long as his shell temperature remains below 93° he can have dew forming on the shell. Shell hydration I never see discussed.

 

[TammyJ]

Shell hydration - mud!

 

[Markw84]

Interesting that the humidity is directly opposite the air temperature.

I also thought I would add my desire to therefore actually have a readout of what temp and humidity is doing over the course of a day. Not just when I happen to check and see current conditions and high/low alone.

I just created this graph from my Sensorpush of the conditions in my female Burmese star enclosure for the past two days. You can see how temperature varies throughout the day and humidity also varies in opposite relation to temperature. This shows what a moist substrate and live plants does to keeping the realative humidity up as the temperature rises as the available moisture is taken into the air with the temperature rise. This keeps the humidity from dropping extremely even though you can still see it does drop to about 85% from 97% daily.

The big drop in humidity and temperature at 9 PM on the 7th was having the door open while I dug up my 9th clutch of eggs from the enclosure. so the door was open for about 5 minutes while I dug up the clutch.

I think there is huge value is being able to see complete history.