I would like your opinions

[terryo]

Maggie,
I completely agree. I would never sell a tortoise that I rescued. I would have no problem signing a contract stating so, if I was given the opportunity. I just disagree with the "if you breed you are evil and greedy" mentality of some people.
but
It takes all kinds.......

I wish that you could talk to her in person. She is really a wonderful person, who loves her animals, and put endless hours and money of her own into helping them. Some of the Sullies that come in are so deformed and sick, and I know it breaks her heart. You cannot blame her for not wanting to see more Sulcata's being born, and sold when there are so many here in NY that were not raised properly, and need homes. She is a dedicated, kind, and caring human being. I am sorry if you found her offensive but this is, unfortunately the attitude of some people who are trying to change things in this world. I realize now that I should have never posted that, as I'm sure good caring owners can be found on the groups that she belongs to.....

 

[DeanS]

Mick...I can't see ANYONE questioning your integrity...EVERYTHING you do is for the good of the animals. Besides, I'd like to see you tell Perseus NO MORE BREEDING As a rescue, I don't see you doing any less. Your commitment and compassion are more than evident with your every post!

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Maggie,
I completely agree. I would never sell a tortoise that I rescued. I would have no problem signing a contract stating so, if I was given the opportunity. I just disagree with the "if you breed you are evil and greedy" mentality of some people.
but
It takes all kinds.......

But I don't have that kind of mentality. Evidently I didn't make my thoughts/opinions clear. I think if you rescue a tortoise and breed it then sell the babies that's cool. But you got the initial tort for free(assuming) so I feel you got it for free you should find a home for it for free. Sell the babies but not the initial free tortoise. I'm sorry if that sounds kinda convoluted and I am not making sense here. I just think you got it for free you need to pay it forward. I don't care about breeding and making money from it. Sulcata used to be over bred and rescues in the West were full up and zoos wouldn't take them anymore and they were on a level with feral cats, and I objected to breeding Sulcata then. But I believe the situation has changed now and even tho I am not quite sure how I feel about breeding Sulcata now, I'm beginning to think it may be alright. I am sorry if you got the impression I was one of those who think you are evil and greedy. I don't know you and don't make assumptions about anyone I don't know. I am just a grumpy old lady who mostly minds my own business. You asked for opinions here and I gave you mine without putting names or insults with my opinion

 

[terryo]

Maggie,
I completely agree. I would never sell a tortoise that I rescued. I would have no problem signing a contract stating so, if I was given the opportunity. I just disagree with the "if you breed you are evil and greedy" mentality of some people.
but
It takes all kinds.......

But I don't have that kind of mentality. Evidently I didn't make my thoughts/opinions clear. I think if you rescue a tortoise and breed it then sell the babies that's cool. But you got the initial tort for free(assuming) so I feel you got it for free you should find a home for it for free. Sell the babies but not the initial free tortoise. I'm sorry if that sounds kinda convoluted and I am not making sense here. I just think you got it for free you need to pay it forward. I don't care about breeding and making money from it. Sulcata used to be over bred and rescues in the West were full up and zoos wouldn't take them anymore and they were on a level with feral cats, and I objected to breeding Sulcata then. But I believe the situation has changed now and even tho I am not quite sure how I feel about breeding Sulcata now, I'm beginning to think it may be alright. I am sorry if you got the impression I was one of those who think you are evil and greedy. I don't know you and don't make assumptions about anyone I don't know. I am just a grumpy old lady who mostly minds my own business. You asked for opinions here and I gave you mine without putting names or insults with my opinion

He was not talking about you Maggie. Here in New York Sulcata are still on a level with feral cats, and our rescue would not give any of her Sulcata to someone who will breed them to profit from the babies, especially when there are so many unwanted ones here.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I see that, too late to delete it. My name shouldn't have been put there...

 

[onarock]

On the level with feral cats? Hmmm............

 

[terryo]

"On the level with feral cats",,,a quote from Maggie's post....A figure of speech. A few months ago, there were so many sulcata in this particular rescue, that she had to refuse to take any more in as she had no room for them. I was only trying to help her find homes for them....wow! Wrong move on my part. Won't happen again! I really don't care one way or the other if people breed Sulcata, or where they get them from. Really.....I couldn't care less.

 

[Az tortoise compound]

Maggie,
I completely agree. I would never sell a tortoise that I rescued. I would have no problem signing a contract stating so, if I was given the opportunity. I just disagree with the "if you breed you are evil and greedy" mentality of some people.
but
It takes all kinds.......

I wish that you could talk to her in person. She is really a wonderful person, who loves her animals, and put endless hours and money of her own into helping them. Some of the Sullies that come in are so deformed and sick, and I know it breaks her heart. You cannot blame her for not wanting to see more Sulcata's being born, and sold when there are so many here in NY that were not raised properly, and need homes. She is a dedicated, kind, and caring human being. I am sorry if you found her offensive but this is, unfortunately the attitude of some people who are trying to change things in this world. I realize now that I should have never posted that, as I'm sure good caring owners can be found on the groups that she belongs to.....

I am not badmouthing anyone. I tried to be very general with my first post. I can understand where Julie is coming from. She has to have a big heart and really care for these guys otherwise she wouldn't have the strong opinions. I provided her my number and she is welcome to call anytime. I can talk your ear off about torts and love every minute of it

It was just unfortunate my particular email was grouped in with the "greedy" breeders and "flippers". After our interaction, I was really bothered by her impression. I figured I would take the subject here, to the people and ask their opinons.

Terry,
Please keep telling people about the rescues! they need a great home regardless of differing opinions. None of this reflects on you.

Dean,
Thank you. I appreciated that post.

Maggie,
No hard feelings! Your opinion was valued. Thank you.

I am all done with this topic now. I invite anyone to give us a ring if there are ever any questions about the way we operate our business AND rescue tortises.

 

[Candy]

Terry I've been reading this thread for a few days now but haven't posted. I will post now because you are doing the right thing by trying to help out a friend. I think it is very nice that you posted these on here like this. The owner of the rescue will give them to who ever she wants and that will be that. We know that you don't have any control over that so don't work yourself up over it. It's not worth it. :shy:

 

[Az tortoise compound]

Terry I've been reading this thread for a few days now but haven't posted. I will post now because you are doing the right thing by trying to help out a friend. I think it is very nice that you posted these on here like this. The owner of the rescue will give them to who ever she wants and that will be that. We know that you don't have any control over that so don't work yourself up over it. It's not worth it. :shy:

+1

 

[Laura]

Terry,, you DO care.. that is why you posted..
People have to care.. or else we are all in big trouble..

 

[Tom]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, so let me start by saying I mean no disrespect to anyone. I have several points to make.

1. American society seems to be getting very judgmental and critical of each other. I don't like this trend of jumping to conclusions, meddling in other people's business, trying to control other people's business, and people being opinionated with no basis or experience with which to form such strong opinions. I'm speaking in general terms here, NOT referring to anyone in particular.

2. America was founded upon, and became the greatest, most powerful civilization that has ever existed because of capitalism. Buy low sell high. Supply and demand. A lot of the very complex problems that we are now experiencing stem from interference with these basic principles. Animals, including tortoises, are a salable commodity. People buy and sell them everyday and there is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't matter to me if someone bought 100 baby redfoots and is reselling them, or if some one is given a tort, of any species, and they want to resell it. What matters to me is that the animal is treated well during every stage of its lifelong journey. If someone can turn a small profit AND the animal is well taken care of at all times, I call that a "win-win" situation.

3. I am in the ANIMAL business. I have been since the age of 14. Prior to that, I dreamed of being in the animal business. I buy, sell, trade, train, keep, breed, raise, show, compete, love, cherish, admire, handle, reward, discipline, praise, pet, and generally involve them in my life in every way possible. I do this with fish, reptiles, amphibians, insects, crustaceans, elasmobranchs, mammals, birds, arachnids, etc... This all means different things to different people. For some people, anyone profiting from any animal, in any way, is somehow wrong or immoral. This concept is lunacy to me. My entire life has been about dealing with animals and somehow, in some way "profiting" from it. I have always tried to do the right thing. Sometimes, sadly, I have failed. My stunted, pyramided adult torts are evidence of that failure. But most of the time I succeed. The animals and people involved all benefit and lives are enriched because of it. I try to learn from every mistake and never make it again.

All this talk about buying, selling, rescuing, breeding, etc... has so many millions of technicalities, exceptions, fine points and idiosyncrasies, that it should be very difficult for any of us to form an opinion about somebody else's "business". The OP asked for opinions. My opinion is this: Everyone should always do the right thing. This can take many forms because everyone has a different set of circumstances to deal with. What's right for Julie at the Long Island Rescue, might not be right for the ATC and vice versa. Doesn't make either one of them right or wrong, or good or bad.

 

[terryo]

That was a great post Tom, especially the last paragraph. It's what I've been trying to say, but just couldn't spit it out.

 

[Yvonne G]

Judging from some of the answers here, I'm thinking that some of you have mis-interpreted the question.

If you adopt a tortoise from someone who has "rescued" it, then YOU have not rescued a tortoise, you have adopted it.

The OP was wanting opinions about breeding programs undertaken by folks who actually do turtle and tortoise rescue. Not an individual who happens to find (rescue) a tortoise crossing the street.

So, should Julie, of the Turtle Rescue of Long Island, have a breeding program? Should Kristina of Kyryah's Tortoise Network have a breeding program? Should Yvonne of Clovis Turtle & Tortoise Rescue, have a breeding program?

Its a whole 'nother can of worms to talk about whether or not you've adopted a tortoise and signed an agreement not to breed it. That's not a rescue, that's an adoption. And its up to YOU if you want to honor that agreement or not.

 

[Candy]

I agree with Yvonne on this one.

 

[Balboa]

LOL It could be I'm totally off here, wouldn't be the first time,

But, Yvonne, as originally worded, and would be understood by most you are correct.

However, as things unraveled and a bit of the background story that led to the question came to light, the real meaning changed a bit, and I'd say all facets discussed here became relevant.

if I'm seeing that wrong sorry, all

All I can say is that I'm glad we have folks like all of you that posted looking out for the best interests and future of "Testudinidae Domesticus". ATC, Yvonne, Kristina, Maggie, (and everyone else who rescues or tries to rescue) you guys ROCK.

 

[terryo]

I agree with Yvonne too. But if you are a rescue/breeder...a person who does both, is it OK for you to adopt from a rescue and then breed the adopted tortoise. That was the real issue.

 

[Candy]

I think Terry that your friend has every right to give her tortoises to whoever she thinks will be best for them. This is her rescue and that's up to her to decide. I've heard you many times before talk about how many Sulcata's she gets in to her rescue. I think people who run rescues probably have a different view point (not all of the time) then others who do. I can honestly say that if I was constantly getting Sulcatas into a rescue that I ran then I probably wouldn't be giving them to people who would breed them. That's just me. No offense to the OP because throughout this thread It seems that he really cares about what he is doing and doesn't seem to me to be irresponsible by any means. That said there are so many out there who are and I think that's where the rescues point of view comes from. I definitely don't agree with irresponsible people breeding anything. Anyway it's not like there is a shortage of these big boys or girls out there to get from other places.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

My $.02 worth:

On a species like the sulcata (or most of the common large pythons/anacondas), I'd rather the rescuer NOT breed 'em, as so many get bought by well-meaning folks who haven't a realistic idea of what owning a 200 lb. tortoise (or a 15'+ snake) entails...which is why there are so many of both in rescues!

OTOH, smaller examples of both animals (ball pythons, commom boas, the various European, N. American, S. American, Asian and African tortoises don't seem (to me) to be a problem, both because they rarely outgrow their homes and are nowhere nearly as common.

My own rescue efforts (pythons) is almost entirely Burmese, which are generally docile and look cute at 12-15", stay cute up to 6 or 8' (which is to say about a year - 18 months) and then all of a sudden have to go...

Currently baby-sitting 17 extra Burms, 2 Anacondas, 2 Reticulateds (all four of of which I refer to as "Psycho-snakes". because they is not even slightly docile and each is from 12'-15', plenty big enough to be extremely unpleasent and somewhat dangerous)...and I'm always looking for a responsible recipient who has no desire to breed them, but they grow harder to find..

 

[maguire5500]

Been trying for a few days to post a reply to this thread but could not log in so signed up with a new user name. Would like to give my opinion. We (Turtle Rescue of Long Island) have a policy about Sulcata tortoises and Red ear sliders not being adopted out to breeders because of the never ending numbers coming into our rescue. We continually see them being sold for $20-$50, as one poster noted, where a much smaller more managable tortoise was being sold for $150, so which tortoise is little Johnny going to get? We're just a small rescue, yet we have just this year alone taken in over 50 Sulcata tortoises and placed 41 of them. We have four more that are supposed to be coming in and starting a waiting list already for spring. So one may ask why we don't like to adopt the Sulcata to breeders, that's why. Same goes with Red ear slider turtles. Those we hardly find homes for anymore. I think we were able to place 15 or 20 this year out of the hundreds of requests for placement. Someone mentioned that Sulcata's won't end up like feral cats. Well, I'm afraid they will in the right climate. Look at RES. There's not a lake or pond anywhere that does not have a healthy population of them because of people dumping them for the past 50 years or so.
We have no problem with anyone adopting any other turtle or tortoise from us and placing it in their breeding group. In fact I think more should be breeding those that are still being taken from the wild and imported as pets to stop the harvesting and depleting from their natural habitat and ultimately becoming endangered like so many. To set something else straight, we are a 501(c)3 non-profit but we do not get any funding from any entity. We hold our yearly fundraiser which we are running now in the way of a raffle to help raise funds to keep us going throughout the year. The majority of our costs are out of our own pockets. We do not charge an adoption fee or an applicaion fee as some do. We only ask the adopter to pay shipping charges when the turtle or tortoise cannot be picked up.
When I am asked to adopt to a breeder of Sulcata's there are no if ands or buts about it, our policy is clear. I'm sure there have been times that some have not been completely honest with us and have used our tortoises for breeding, so shame on them. But just so we're clear, just because one breeds their tortoises I don't believe them to be 'evil and greedy', I just don't believe more Sulcata tortoises should be being bred with so many out there needing homes. Just look on Craigslist, Petfinder, Kingsnake, etc. Then you have all those babies sold like they are disposable pets, and for so many they are. I am passionate about the work I do with these magnificent animals and I hate to see how so many are used and abused. They deserve so much more.
Terry, thank you so much for your kind words and for trying to help us find good homes for the tortoises. You're a very kind person and I appreciate your efforts.