If I Could Turn Back Time

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manmythlegend

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Ok...
I've read all 36 pages of Tom's Eradicating Pyramiding threads, including most of the links. In response to this I am changing the way I house Marshell over this weekend. He will still be in the same enclosure, a Rubbermaid tub with around 4' x 2' dimensions. I will still use the infrared heat bulb in the clip on light fixture over the open end of the tub. His water dish will be the same plastic Chinese takeout container with aquarium gravel in the bottom to make it shallower. I also left his favorite log hide in there but buried it so that only the top inch or so is showing. Hopefully he will dig that out and use it again in the new wet setup since that was his favorite place to hang.
marshell1.jpg
I have removed the Timothy hay and sand and replaced it with a pretty deep layer of peat moss, orchid bark and coconut fiber. I took out his little grass hut and put in a plastic dish tub turned upside down and buried flush with the bottom of the Rubbermaid. It has nothing but the coconut inside. I also rummaged around in the garage and found an old piece of glass from a coffee table and placed it over 2/3rds of one end of the tub.

At the moment I am getting temperature readings of 82-89F halfway between the substrate and the glass top. The humidity at the same level is 30-45%. The temperature inside the humid hide buried in the coconut is reading 78F at the moment so I've put a shop light with an incandescent bulb over it to raise the temperatures a little more. I made sure the substrate was relatively deep so he can burrow down into it and it will retain the heat better. His basking area now has a small slate tile in addition to the flat black stones he is used to from the previous dry setup. I am getting temperature readings in the mid-90s here. This is on the open side of the new setup.

The weather here is starting to perk up nicely and I put him out once the sun is shining on his outdoor enclosure on the weekends and when I get home from work on weekdays. Once the shade of the house covers his area we bring him inside and soak him in a tepid bath for about 1/2 an hour so he can poop and fed him some sort of greens and weeds mix before tucking him in for the night.

His feeding pattern has been sporadic at best but that will be rectified. I have no idea what he weighed when we got him but he's 4.5 oz at the moment after his soak and he's around 2 years old. I'm hoping to see a growth spurt now that it seems I'm on the right track after stumbling across the forum.

I have been operating under the mistaken idea that they eat mainly hay this past year since I got him. Mainly I have been relying on the Timothy hay substrate to be his main source of food and would change it out monthly with fresh hay that I'd cut into small inch long sections so it was more of a size he could tackle.

He has gotten Dandelion greens about every other week or so, very occasional cactus pads, some kale or some other dark leafy greens scattered here and there. I've consistently fed up to 3 or 4 soaked Mazuri pellets sprinkled with calcium and D3 on either Saturday or Sunday nights as a treat every week so at least there's that. I've also thrown in occasional treats such as sweet potato, squash, a slice of radish with the tops, parsley, garden flowers (gazania, zinnia, hibiscus, etc.), rose and hibiscus leaves, various weeds from the back yard here and there and occasional celery hearts or cucumber slices.

A closeup look of pre-conversion Marshell's carapace can be found on his introduction thread at-

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hello-all-you-happy-people#axzz1nRXbz5vN
 
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Laura

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did you see him eat the hay? IF they eat it, its great.. if not.. well you gotta find other stuff..
I bet if you feed him more of what he will eat and Mazuri you will see a growth spurt.
 

manmythlegend

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I've seen him mouth at it a time or two but I've never seen him chomping down on it like he does the greens as far as I can recall. I thought since it was always available for him I just wasn't catching him eating it and that he probably ate when he was burrowed down into it since all the tender bits usually migrated to the bottom of the pile.
 

Tom

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I don't think there are too many of us that don't wish we could turn back time in regards to our tortoises. Sounds like you are on the right track now, and you really didn't do too bad of a job to begin with. You obviously researched proper care and put a lot of thought into it. He looks pretty good.
 

Redstrike

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The pyramiding on that leopard is pretty mild, so I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. Still looks pretty good to me!
 

manmythlegend

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enclosure1.jpg
So here is the indoor enclosure as it stands now. Marshell is outside and I'm still trying to get his stuff straightened out while he's enjoying the sunshine. I will have to go shopping later for a CHE to replace the incandescent bulb I'm using for heat over the humid hide now. The hide is registering around 90 some-odd degrees and humidity seems to be hovering around 50%. I'll have to move the incandescent from over the top of the hide it seems or hang it from above instead of setting it on the glass. I'm spraying the hide down with water every time I happen to think of it trying to increase the humidity even more.


Tom, I really am happy that you think I've done a decent job with Marshell up to now, that means a lot to me coming from you. I'm trying my best to make sure he grows up strong and healthy. I just hope he gets a good growth spurt going. I want him big enough that I won't obsess about his safety so much when he's outside. I'm still a little concerned about his weight. 4.5 oz (125ish grams) for a two year old leopard? Doesn't sound like much...
Here he is on the day I brought him home
Marshell5.JPG
The very first picture of him in the introduction thread was taken on the same day as the post.
I got him beside a ruler a month or two ago, 3 inches as you can see.
marshell01.JPG
 
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wellington

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I did the same as you and there are many of us. Bad advise in the beginning until I found this forum and I also changed to the way of Tom's thread. The baby picture of when you got your tort looks like pyramiding had already started before he even got to you. I don't know what size they usually get at the age of yours, however seems a little small. Mine is 11 mo. and is just under three inches and is 7 oz. after his soak. Mine might be a pig though lol, not sure of that either. I now only listen to advise from this forum. Good luck, glad you found TFO:D
 

manmythlegend

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photo-2.JPG
Here's a pretty good image of Marshell taken this morning after his shower. You can see the 5 point star with the heart in the center on his left "shoulder" scute, the shield (or a floppy eared puppy, depending on what you want to see) directly behind his head, the MNM on his vertebral scutes and what may be a Pac-man closing in on a meal on his left at the back "hip" area. These are the only markings I can make anything out of...funny how the ones that resemble anything are all down the center or on his left.

He's not used the humid hide just yet, but it's only been 2-3 days. I don't even think he has voluntarily gone in there one single time. I think I'm gonna have to force him to stay in there by closing the door. Good thing I left the flap in place when I cut the door into the dish pan, now I can just push it back into place and put a rock or something in front of it to keep him in there overnight.
 
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manmythlegend

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I'm not sure but I do believe Marshell has been more active since converting to humid. He used to burrow under the hay and spend a lot of time out of sight in the log or in his hut in the dry setup but every time I've looked in on him since last weekend's humidity change he's been up and about. He seems much more active. Am I imagining things or has anyone else experienced this behavior?
He voluntarily went into the hide last night! I'd just about given up and decided to just lock him up in there overnight but he's chosen to use it on his own now it seems. Yay! :D
 

manmythlegend

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So it's been almost a week now on the as humid as I can get it treatment and Marshell seems more active at this point. He's out wandering around pretty much every time I look in on him at least which isn't usual for him. The last 2-3 nights he's used the hide overnight and come out a couple of hours later than usual to eat.

I've been keeping the temperatures in the mid-70s up through 95ish on the basking tile. Humidity hovers around 30% in the tub and 50% in the hide but I spritz him down with a garden sprayer every time I walk by to check on him. There have also been soaks for 1/2 hour daily. He's had fresh dandelion or collard greens and weeds and grasses from the yard every day to eat.

Fingers crossed...
 

Jacob

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Great, try to bumb up that humidity just a tad bit.
spray the whole enclosure, the shell, and all under the closed part to get the humidity up!
 

manmythlegend

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Jacob said:
Great, try to bumb up that humidity just a tad bit.
spray the whole enclosure, the shell, and all under the closed part to get the humidity up!

I live in Arizona and I'm starting to think that without a misting system of some sort, I'm never going to get humidity as high as is recommended! I spritz him down and spray the entire setup several times a day. I've filled the two gallon sprayer twice this past week. When I took his water dish out to thoroughly clean it a couple days ago there was water about 1/8-1/4" deep standing under the water dish so I'm assuming that means the bottom layer of peat moss is saturated?

Anyway, with consistent spraying of him and the enclosure, dumping cups of water in the humid hide which I think I got up to 56% humidity, a water dish available at all times (he was soaking in it a couple days ago all on his own), almost (I've missed two) daily soaks for a 1/2 hour in tepid water and wet greens to eat daily (I mist the food too) I hope I'm doing enough. There are 6 large aquariums set up with various fish here that lose around an inch of water a week to evaporation. You'd think with that much humidity being released into the house it'd be moister in here...

I have a question...
How long does Marshell need to be kept humid like this? Most of what I've been reading deals with the hatchlings, Marshell is going on two years old now. Is there a point where I should stop the humidity and he will continue to develop smoothly or does he need spraying down the rest of his live-long days? Should I just keep him humid while in his tub until he finally goes outdoors for good once he attains a size I'm comfortable with?
 

wellington

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I want to know too, how long we keep up the high humidity:D. However it seems everyone still soaks or sprays their tort even at full size. Everyday, I am not sure about that. However always having soaking/drinking water available for them.
 

Tom

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I have observed the same behavioral changes as you when switching from dry to wet. That is all good. Glad he figured out his humid hide. Some of them take weeks or months to figure it out. I don't worry too much about the numbers for humidity. Few of us even have accurate hygrometers anyway. I don't. Just keep doing all that you are doing and that will give him the best chance at smooth new growth. He is a little small for his age, but given the pyramiding he came to you with, and the environment that he would have had to be in to cause that, it is not surprising. Most of the time they will get "over the hump" and then start sprouting. That's what my sulcata Daisy did. She hardly grew at all for two years and then took off. I usually see 12-18" listed as adult size for the regular leopards. For sulcatas, the magic size where you can relax on the wet routine seems to be somewhere between 6-10". I have not heard a size listed for leopards. My Gpp are all 4-7" or so and I have relaxed a bit with them. They stay out in the sun all day, weather permitting, but their indoor enclosure for night and cold days is still a closed chamber with 70-80% humidity and humid hide boxes. I still spray them once or twice a day, more when they are outside, and I soak them two or three times a week now, instead of every day. I think it would be difficult to get them to start pyramiding at this point given their size and pattern of smooth growth so far, but I'm not willing to test that theory. Sometime in the next year or so, they will all be moved outside permanently since they are just getting too big to be indoors. At that point it will be "dry" city.
 

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manmythlegend said:

So here is the indoor enclosure as it stands now. Marshell is outside and I'm still trying to get his stuff straightened out while he's enjoying the sunshine. I will have to go shopping later for a CHE to replace the incandescent bulb I'm using for heat over the humid hide now. The hide is registering around 90 some-odd degrees and humidity seems to be hovering around 50%. I'll have to move the incandescent from over the top of the hide it seems or hang it from above instead of setting it on the glass. I'm spraying the hide down with water every time I happen to think of it trying to increase the humidity even more.


Tom, I really am happy that you think I've done a decent job with Marshell up to now, that means a lot to me coming from you. I'm trying my best to make sure he grows up strong and healthy. I just hope he gets a good growth spurt going. I want him big enough that I won't obsess about his safety so much when he's outside. I'm still a little concerned about his weight. 4.5 oz (125ish grams) for a two year old leopard? Doesn't sound like much...
Here he is on the day I brought him home

The very first picture of him in the introduction thread was taken on the same day as the post.
I got him beside a ruler a month or two ago, 3 inches as you can see











My leopard will be 2 in May he is almost 900 grams...BUT he was not fed the proper diet for a whole 18 months b4 i got him. and in that time (4 months) he has gained like 450g at least!!! more than double what he was the day i got him(he was 419g nov 2011)!! its amazing how proper diet and humidity can boost them up!!! keep up the good work and Marshal will be a beast!!!!:D lol (sonne started gaining like 80-125 grams a month!!!) GOOD LUCK :)
hers a pic just b/c ..not tryin to steal a thread but jus showing u how big my guy is :)
SANY3054.jpg
 

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I think marshall looks really good! I have that same rubbmaid tank as you and have the light just sitting on the glass but I guess I should move that like you did?
 

manmythlegend

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EddieW- I now have a 100w bulb about a foot above the glass and getting temperatures of mid80s to mid90s degrees in the tub. I may have to raise it a little higher. I had the lamp raised up around 1/4 inch on a couple of tiles while it was sitting on the glass to allow air circulation and it also had only a 60w bulb in it.

I was too chicken that the glass would shatter from the heat if the lamp was directly on the glass. If the glass got superheated and you either bumped it or dropped something on it or dripped some cool water on the hot spot or any other number of things that I can't think of...Blam! Glass shards EVERYWHERE! At least in my head that's what happens... :rolleyes:

Kvoigt- I didn't think for a second that you were trying to hijack Marshell's thread. I actually appreciate the photo of Sonne because as they say- a picture is worth a lot of words! Sonne doubled in size in 4 months! That's AWESOME and gives me a glimmer of hope for Marshell's recovery from (here forthwith know as)- "The Year of Misinformation". :p

Marshell has perked up quite a bit and I'm actually enjoying him more as a "pet" now. He's more active, more INTERactive, doing things more like I've heard others describe their tortoises behave. I now can sort of see why some people gush so over their tortoises. He's cute when he's not hiding out all the time.

He's using his water dish as a soak pretty often now which I'd never seen before. I have now though and have photographic proof that he's the one who pooped in his water dish so he can't blame it on the dogs this time!
photo-2.JPG
 
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manmythlegend

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Marshell FINALLY cooperated so I could get an image or three of his right side. As you can see, nothing you can make into anything cutesy.
 

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manmythlegend

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153 grams after his soak today. That's 28 grams since the last weigh in less than a month ago! :D I also measured him today and he's around 3.75". I think that's around 3/4" more than the last time.
marshell8.jpg
Dandelion greens, endive leaves, fresh weeds from the yard including mallow and other broadleaf type weeds, grasses and landscaping plants (roses, hibiscus, etc.) have been available pretty much twice a day. I'm not consistent with the Mazuri but he's had at least a handful of those (I have BIG hands too) a couple at a time. I keep the greens sprayed down with the same tap water sprayer I use on the enclosure. I figure the liquid rock we have coming out of the tap will probably build a nice carapace.

He's starting to dig down into the substrate a little under the infrared light instead of going in the hide. I'm wondering if he is still able to get in there! I had it measured pretty closely so that he could get in but it wasn't letting very much humidity out at the same time. I may have to remeasure the doorway and make sure he can still fit.
 
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